“Treating us like second class citizens”

There's a branch of gamers who feel like since they paid for a game everything made for the game should be free and come with it.
Imagine these people buying a performance car.
I think it's more that a lot of games nowadays are built to be incomplete, with DLC there to fill in what, in the past, would have been on the disk.
 
On the first part, I don't see what "well I can do the same thing but be really blatantly disingenuous about it" is supposed to prove.
Pretty good steel man argument.


We all know that your response is not about an vulnerable group; there is no real confusion here. We're not suddenly going to go mad and have to consult a chart to see who word belong to.
You're somewhat right - my response was not about a vulnerable group. My response was about words being policed by some matrix of intersectional identity and oppression indexed by metaphorical appropriateness.

To use your analogy, I think you've/we've gone mad, and I'm asking for the chart.

[/QUOTE]



The second part doesn't make any damned sense. "All Lives Matter" and "Blue Lives Matter" doesn't prove that the phrase doesn't belong to black people, because it's actively framed as a response to Black Lives Matter. They don't exist independently of the original phrase as the same slogan they are now. It's not even a matter of ownership, it's that you think of Black Lives Matter whenever you see a snowclone of that phrase because that's what's being referenced.

[/QUOTE]
We're talking past each other on this, but I made it pretty clear why I don't think it was fair or correct to equate my jab at someone who want to ban people who used the phrase "hold ______ hostage" with All Lives Matter.

We're thinking about this in completely different ways, which is fine. But you're really not going to take what I said on, an atick by "that's some all lives matter shit"?

I'm not at all convinced that it wasn't a cheap attempt marginalize someone who doesn't agree with you.

Also, I'm not really interested in you playing the victim, to be honest.
There's no playing. It was a cheap shot to marginalize a position you don't agree with. You can't say it's the same thing by quoting me sarcastically saying it's the same thing. You have to explain how.

Or, you can do the ERA: Disagree>Dismiss>Repeat
 
Because you’re (likely) not part of a marginalized group and lack perspective.

And a hardy fuck you to whoever said that.
Assumptions...

Choosing to not be offended by something that isn’t intended to be an insult to marginalized groups, idiotic as the comments may be, seems the way to go for me personally.
 
It is very frustrating to see gamers co-op the language of marginalized groups (when it comes to real life issues) and apply it to themselves when the industry does something they don’t like, even when they deserve to be criticized. And then that same group will overlook, wave off gaming related issues those actual marginalized groups have with the industry.
Really dont see what is so hard to understand about this point. If you dont understand the issue or think its not a problem, you're probably someone who's shown this hypocrisy.
 
Assumptions...

Choosing to not be offended by something that isn’t intended to be an insult to marginalized groups, idiotic as the comments may be, seems the way to go for me personally.
“When I call him a ***, it’s just joke, I don’t mean it in a homophobic way.”

I feel great about my assumption right now.

Also, we’re in a forum that jumped on me a week ago for putting Fucks With in a title, so don’t give me that “you’re easily offended” shit.
 
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Pretty good steel man argument.




You're somewhat right - my response was not about a vulnerable group. My response was about words being policed by some matrix of intersectional identity and oppression indexed by metaphorical appropriateness.

To use your analogy, I think you've/we've gone mad, and I'm asking for the chart.



We're talking past each other on this, but I made it pretty clear why I don't think it was fair or correct to equate my jab at someone who want to ban people who used the phrase "hold ______ hostage" with All Lives Matter.

We're thinking about this in completely different ways, which is fine. But you're really not going to take what I said on, an atick by "that's some all lives matter shit"?

I'm not at all convinced that it wasn't a cheap attempt marginalize someone who doesn't agree with you.



There's no playing. It was a cheap shot to marginalize a position you don't agree with. You can't say it's the same thing by quoting me sarcastically saying it's the same thing. You have to explain how.

Or, you can do the ERA: Disagree>Dismiss>Repeat
What are you saying that people aren't addressing?


You made a cheap joke to take the issue away from minorities with actual issues, and I point out how that's a standard distraction tactic from people who simply don't care about minority issues.

You say that "Black Lives Matter" doesn't belong to black people because of "All Lives Matter", and I point out how "All Lives Matter" is still a response to black lives matter so the statement is invoking the image of minorities' issues in all its variations.

You keep whining about how your opinion is being marginalized when I disagree with it; I point out that you're playing the victim.


I don't think your continued insistence that you're not being argued against is an adequate defense against people's counterarguments. We can agree to disagree, because I don't think I'll ever see eye-to-eye with someone who is taking an outrage culture and no politics in games stance. But I don't think you're going to accomplish much if you're going to continue that tactic of acting like Era is oppressing your opinion.

At the very least, it's hard to get me, personally, to care about what you're saying when I've seen the only reasonable debater and their oppressed opinion act so many times before.
 
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“When I call him a ***, it’s just joke, I don’t mean it in a homophobic way.”

I feel great about my assumption right now.

Also, we’re in a forum that jumped on me a week ago for putting Fucks With in a title, so don’t give me that “you’re easily offended” shit.
Different context.. Good luck with your crusade, I’m out.
 
When I call him a ***, it’s just joke, I don’t mean it in a homophobic way.”

I feel great about my assumption right now.

Also, we’re in a forum that jumped on me a week ago for putting Fucks With in a title, so don’t give me that “you’re easily offended” shit.
Is that the kind of language you were referring to that's openly used on this forum and belittles marginalized groups? Because I feel like thats a separate point entirely.
 
“Different Context” lol

Yall are full of it. This thread is full of purposely obtuse posts and whataboutisms at its finest. Watch it go overlooked because, well because its this kind of thread. Smh
It is though. Using a term as “second class citizen” as a very tasteless way of saying you are being victimized by a publisher of developer or whatever is something different than calling someone a fag and making it seem like a lighthearted joke. The latter being a personal attack, the former a stupid use of dramatic language.
 
I agree in this instance, that "X is holding Y hostage" is basically just a hyperbolic shorthand used to express frustration with something, but there is a big problem with stuff like, well, the title of the thread. There are gamers who unironically state that they're being treated like second class citizens, or that there's a prejudice against gamers that's equivalent to actual systemic oppression.
On this forum?
 
I wonder if the OP expected this thread to go any other way?

Asking gamers to spare even a second to consider anything not directly effecting themselves or their games is like asking a tree to talk to you
 
It is though. Using a term as “second class citizen” as a very tasteless way of saying you are being victimized by a publisher of developer or whatever is something different than calling someone a fag and making it seem like a lighthearted joke. The latter being a personal attack, the former a stupid use of dramatic language.
The thing is, we know the difference. Thats not what this thread is about. Its about the amount of energy and time this forum takes to escalate issues such as dlc, localization changes, dev criticism etc. Yet when a thread expressing the disappointment of representation in videogames by minorities people bat an eye and could care less. That same energy is missing.
I wonder if the OP expected this thread to go any other way?

Asking gamers to spare even a second to consider anything not directly effecting themselves or their games is like asking a tree to talk to you
Well its good he posted it, change or not. Regardless, the lack of understanding and irrelevant post in this thread that try to push the real issue aside is concerning. Makes this forum uninviting and shows how fake people are here.
 
What are you saying that people aren't addressing?


You made a cheap joke to take the issue away from minorities with actual issues, and I point out how that's a standard distraction tactic from people who simply don't care about minority issues.

You say that "Black Lives Matter" doesn't belong to black people because of "All Lives Matter", and I point out how "All Lives Matter" is still a response to black lives matter so the statement is invoking the image of minorities' issues in all its variations.

You keep whining about how your opinion is being marginalized when I disagree with it; I point out that you're playing the victim.


I don't think your continued insistence that you're not being argued against is an adequate defense against people's counterarguments. We can agree to disagree, because I don't think I'll ever see eye-to-eye with someone who is taking an outrage culture and no politics in games stance. But I don't think you're going to accomplish much if you're going to continue that tactic of acting like Era is oppressing your opinion.

At the very least, it's hard to get me, personally, to care about what you're saying when I've seen the only reasonable debater and their oppressed opinion act so many times before.
There's a ton of things to contend with here, and I don't even think you're being unreasonable.

My biggest problem is that I don't have a "no politics in games" stance, but you keep nudging everything I say into that category - starting with an off the cuff invocation of All Lives Matter.

My primary concern is - and always has been - free and open speech so that we can have worthwhile discussions, political and otherwise.
 
Hyperbolic and reactionary whining is pretty common on the internet. It's what the vocal minority are known for.

What really gets me is when people think that corporations are obligated to participate in political crusades. Corporations exist to make money, not support your personal agenda.
 
AC Odyssey includes 2 free remastered games AC3 and AC:Liberation with the season pass, and there are complaints about the number of other versions there are, because its ubisoft right? I mean its just a statue, do you really need it? I think most people who are looking for the 'best value' option wouldn't pick the pantheon version.
 
Dude, there are actual sports fans who get into actual physical altercations of fans of a rival team. Nothing ive seen gamers do can compare to that.
Our community created a hate group that resulted in a continuing campaign of harassment that have forced women to leave their homes or lose their jobs.
 
What really gets me is when people think that corporations are obligated to participate in political crusades. Corporations exist to make money, not support your personal agenda.
Well, if the agenda is one of tolerance and diversity and representation, yeah they should support that agenda.
 
Okay, let’s try this again because you seem bothered by things I’m not even saying.

It is very frustrating to see gamers co-op the language of marginalized groups (when it comes to real life issues) and apply it to themselves when the industry does something they don’t like, even when they deserve to be criticized. And then that same group will overlook, wave off gaming related issues those actual marginalized groups have with the industry.
Don't worry, I got you OP. I can definitely see the hypocrisy here. A lot of 'gamers', cis, straight, white male gamers in particular, can and do co-opt social justice terminology from groups they're not a part of... and then proceed to not give half a smidgen of a care about said group.

It's gross and tone deaf that treats gaming as the end all be all issue.

There's nothing wrong with advocating for better business practices- both for workers and the end customer, to make sure neither are taken advantage of. There's something inherently wrong with treating it like the big issue of the era, even using terms that advocates on more vital issues use, and sneering when someone who, say, is black suggests there should be more black people and other PoC in video games- as characters in games, and as part of the industry.

Our community created a hate group that resulted in a continuing campaign of harassment that have forced women to leave their homes or lose their jobs.
Yeah I mean.
Sports fans can be out there but, yeah, I think Gamergate- whether it was purely borne of our community or was borne with exploitation of the mindset of the community by Russian bots as I've seen some research suggest- proves we have a BIG problem with inclusivity and making people feel safe given who they are in the community surrounding video games, as a hobby and an industry.

____

Also... it's highly "amusing" (saddening) to see a select few who claim to "agree" with the OP essentially now marginalizing those with mental disorders by bringing up lootboxes and how they're ~not actually exploitative and predatory~ IN THIS VERY THREAD when they're literally- as in the literal term literally, not hyperbolic literally- designed to prey on those with impulse problems borne from mental disorders like anxiety disorder or OCD. As a pan man with anxiety disorder who fell victim to this sort of thing, it's legit distressing to see that apologia encroach upon a thread that's supposed to be about how we need to listen to voices systemically marginalized by society (in this case, those with mental disorders) if we're going to criticize something smaller than societal norms.
 
Yeah I mean.
Sports fans can be out there but, yeah, I think Gamergate- whether it was purely borne of our community or was borne with exploitation of the mindset of the community by Russian bots as I've seen some research suggest- proves we have a BIG problem with inclusivity and making people feel safe given who they are in the community surrounding video games, as a hobby and an industry.
In some ways it doesn’t even matter. Even if outside agitators strategically stoked the fires, the fact we were vulnerable to buying into such an absurd grievience speaks volumes.

Look back to the earliest days of Gamergate - a jilted ex accused videogame reviewers of giving positive coverage to Depression Quest (a free game), because they were friends with its developer. Even if you were to buy this most positive interpretation of the drivers of gamergate (an interpretation argued for by the early advocates of Gamergate), it paints a picture of widespread and severe arrested development that has infested gaming culture.

The fact that people could picture themselves of functioning and stable adults and subsequently fly into uncontrollable rage over the idea of fucking biased video game reviews is insane. One’s life would have to be entirely devoid of meaning or importance to have that kind of reaction, even if Gamergate’s accusations were true
 
i like to play and know about video games but i dont consider myself a gamer, so i understand some of the points made on the thread about "gamers" and their cringe. Still, voicing strong and hyperbolic opinions on the internet is hardly anything exclusive to gamers, nor is it something new, and unfortunately there's sleazy companies everywhere too
 
Still, voicing strong and hyperbolic opinions on the internet is hardly anything exclusive to gamers, nor is it something new, and unfortunately there's sleazy companies everywhere too
I struggle to believe anyone halfway intelligent and conversing in good faith can be convinced by the endless variations of ‘but other communities do it too!’

That these problems are shared with other communities means absolutely nothing. The fact remains that our community suffers from these problems and we are still struggling to acknowledge them, let alone address them.

Like I work in child protection. When someone brings up the fact that foster kids are disproportionately likely to be have contact with the criminal justice system, should I bring up that tons of other kids also commit crime? What does that accomplish? What value would that create other than distracting from the problem at hand?
 
I'm not sure I agree with people saying it's just a hyperbolic term so it's ok because that's not what they really mean by that. At that point I guess people should also just be ok with saying how they got "raped" when things go bad in games or how they are "raping" the other team.

I'm just saying that's a slippery slope..
 
I struggle to believe anyone halfway intelligent and conversing in good faith can be convinced by the endless variations of ‘but other communities do it too!’

That these problems are shared with other communities means absolutely nothing. The fact remains that our community suffers from these problems and we are still struggling to acknowledge them, let alone address them.

Like I work in child protection. When someone brings up the fact that foster kids are disproportionately likely to be have contact with the criminal justice system, should I bring up that tons of other kids also commit crime? What does that accomplish? What value would that create other than distracting from the problem at hand?
i see you, i mean, i dont interact with gaming communities all that much, specially not when dealing with politics/race to have an informed opinion really. So i should've not commented tbh, see, im an european leftist and in my naivite i always thought that in 2018 the western culture at least would be way more advanced in matters of women/minorities equality, but, here we are

edit: Also, for the people saying that since i post here im a gamer for sure, id like to say that i might know me and what i am better than random internet board stranger. I love movies, studied cinema but i also dont consider myself a cinephile, just a guy who digs movies.

Im just a guy who digs (some) videogames, not a gamer, much less an hardcore gamer. What i do with my free time doesnt define me, really, only as lazy
 
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In some ways it doesn’t even matter. Even if outside agitators strategically stoked the fires, the fact we were vulnerable to buying into such an absurd grievience speaks volumes.

Look back to the earliest days of Gamergate - a jilted ex accused videogame reviewers of giving positive coverage to Depression Quest (a free game), because they were friends with its developer. Even if you were to buy this most positive interpretation of the drivers of gamergate (an interpretation argued for by the early advocates of Gamergate), it paints a picture of widespread and severe arrested development that has infested gaming culture.

The fact that people could picture themselves of functioning and stable adults and subsequently fly into uncontrollable rage over the idea of fucking biased video game reviews is insane. One’s life would have to be entirely devoid of meaning or importance to have that kind of reaction, even if Gamergate’s accusations were true
Exactly, that it's capable of getting to such a point is a problem. I apologize if my post came off as implying otherwise. I have a tendency of embellishing with additional things that might not needed or helpful to the conversation, sorry. I'll try to work on it.
 
“When I call him a ***, it’s just joke, I don’t mean it in a homophobic way.”

I feel great about my assumption right now.

Also, we’re in a forum that jumped on me a week ago for putting Fucks With in a title, so don’t give me that “you’re easily offended” shit.
That thread was so fucking dumb. Not the title. The way people reacted.

This thread too apparently.

The way some people react so adversely to the thesis of the first post also just proves the necessity of calling this shit out. Y'all people whining are just exposing yourselves. Sorry. (Not.)
 
Wait, this shit gets thrown around in threads here? I’m used to seeing it on twitter and reddit and YouTube comment sections, but I guess I’ve never run into it on these Era yet. Though I haven’t really spent a ton of time on gaming side outside of specific threads, so maybe those have just been exemplary... Either way, yeah, get out of here with that sort of hyperbole.
 
I don't really understand this thread, its like there's 10 different arguments happening at once.
I guess the thread title is pretty vague. It seems like people are generally venting about anything gaming related.


Gamergate is worse than drunken fights.
I guess to me, physical violence will always be worse than emotional terrorism. But I guess it's pretty subjective.

Our community created a hate group that resulted in a continuing campaign of harassment that have forced women to leave their homes or lose their jobs.
"Our community?" What does that even mean? Did Resetera create the shitshow that was gamergate?

Or do you consider everyone who plays video games part of some sort of hivemind monolith?
 
the reply was to 'sports fans do X', so
Which was a reply to "I’ve yet to see any group following a hobby or sport that acts as childish as gamers."

--

Generally, every fan base is filled with childish/shitty people. People who are in the political "community" are just as toxic as gamers in regards to inclusivity. And lets not talk about comic book fans...

I think people are generalising the vocal minority of every group as the most dominant members of that group. Which is causing a feedback loop of toxicity. It just seems like an unfortunate side-effect of the internet.
 
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"Our community?" What does that even mean? Did Resetera create the shitshow that was gamergate?

Or do you consider everyone who plays video games part of some sort of hivemind monolith?
Yes, our community. We all contribute to the discourse and culture in gaming. In this context, divisions and sub divisions into increasingly insular communities is nothing but a tool to abdicate responsibility. Which in turn, is a really good way to rationalise not doing a damn thing to improve our communities.

And let’s not for a second entertain the fantasy that Era is somehow free from all the toxic elements that gave birth to Gamergate. Look at the endless array of shitshow threads we have had in Era’s short life; from the five billion page thread of people losing their shit that Jim Sterling gave BotW a 7/10 to that thread about how Era makes our female members uncomfortable that had to be locked because people couldn’t stop making female members uncomfortable in that very thread.

The emotional immaturity, the ennui, the misogyny and the anger that created Gamergate is all here. The only difference is that we have better mods.
 
that thread about how Era makes our female members uncomfortable that had to be locked because people couldn’t stop making female members uncomfortable in that very thread.
Wow missed that one. What topic was it? Didn't find with quick search. Could use some anger to start my day.
 
The thing is, we know the difference. Thats not what this thread is about. Its about the amount of energy and time this forum takes to escalate issues such as dlc, localization changes, dev criticism etc. Yet when a thread expressing the disappointment of representation in videogames by minorities people bat an eye and could care less. That same energy is missing.
I mean, people are vocal about things that affect them. That's not rocket science.
 
Nintendo die-hards are very good at doing this and it's honestly cringe as fuck. The victim complex is so boring, as if publishers are out to get them and ruin their lives. It's just videogames, man. Sure, publishers can do better for certain audiences but let's stop acting as if they're actively out to make your lives worse.

The thing is, we know the difference. Thats not what this thread is about. Its about the amount of energy and time this forum takes to escalate issues such as dlc, localization changes, dev criticism etc. Yet when a thread expressing the disappointment of representation in videogames by minorities people bat an eye and could care less. That same energy is missing.
Well its good he posted it, change or not. Regardless, the lack of understanding and irrelevant post in this thread that try to push the real issue aside is concerning. Makes this forum uninviting and shows how fake people are here.
I don't think this is completely true. We've just had a second thread open up after a thread about sexualisation of women in videogames hit 20k posts. I wouldn't call that "not batting an eye". Most threads about conduct towards women, ethnic minorities etc. get pretty heated on this forum.
 
It's true. People really shouldn't be dissatisfied when taken advantage of. That would be insane!

Your concerns of those who control your favored disposable entertainment are miniscule. What you really need to do is stop pretending any of that really matters. Check your entitlement.

If there are shady business practices, so what? If a corporation purposefully deceives its audience, why act like they did something wrong?

I think it's more that a lot of games nowadays are built to be incomplete, with DLC there to fill in what, in the past, would have been on the disk.
Yup. Why buy on release when the complete edition "full edition" releases a year later. And for $60 again to boot.
 
The thing is, we know the difference. Thats not what this thread is about. Its about the amount of energy and time this forum takes to escalate issues such as dlc, localization changes, dev criticism etc. Yet when a thread expressing the disappointment of representation in videogames by minorities people bat an eye and could care less. That same energy is missing.
Well its good he posted it, change or not. Regardless, the lack of understanding and irrelevant post in this thread that try to push the real issue aside is concerning. Makes this forum uninviting and shows how fake people are here.
I don't know if it's necessary a matter of being fake, but it's important to remember that there's no magic barrier preventing people from 4chan and other gaming forums from joining. The only thing that really creates a difference between ResetEra and other gaming forums is what the moderation deems unacceptable.

Additionally, while ResetEra may have been created in response to an allegation, there's also nothing that can really guarantee that people are here because of that specifically. There are also people who are here specifically because their gaming communities moved and they didn't want to be in a smaller one, and don't really care why it moved, or people who joined the site later for some other reason. I don't really know how many of these folks would allege themselves to be anything more then they are when they're not playing defense.
 
I saw somebody use the term 'victim blaming' in a thread about games not being available for a certain console (thinking about it, I don't even think the game wasn't available, just delayed) so yeah I get what you're saying OP. The language people use to describe something about their hobby that they don't like can get ridiculous in here.
 
But what about people saying "this is the worst"?. Or the common phase "Die" when playing a multi-player vs game? I understand the sentiment of this topic but sometimes people who are passionate about something speak in hyperboles. I don't think that's wrong to be honest.
 
But what about people saying "this is the worst"?. Or the common phase "Die" when playing a multi-player vs game? I understand the sentiment of this topic but sometimes people who are passionate about something speak in hyperboles. I don't think that's wrong to be honest.
Stuff like that is fine. When people behave like some great injustice has been done to them because they don't like a game they bought, that's frustrating to see.
 
Dude, there are actual sports fans who get into actual physical altercations of fans of a rival team. Nothing ive seen gamers do can compare to that.
A physical altercation versus widespread racism, misogynism, etc on a daily basis.

I don’t see sports fans feeding into the alt right or running toxic websites.
 
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