“Treating us like second class citizens”

Nepenthe

When the music hits, you feel no pain.
Moderator
I think this thread is silly or at least not made in good faith.

You can't blame people for using metaphors that has entered in the standard vernacular of people, it's like saying that people shouldn't say stuff like "Sony killed the competition" or "Nintendo dropped the bomb" because there's people that actually suffered that kind of stuff.
Expressions like "treated like second class citizens" and "holding x hostage" are metaphors used in every type of conversations and not exclusive to gaming, and that aside as metaphors they do their job of accentuate the meaning of a certain concept so they are hyperbolic by definition.

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You want to create a topic about the lack of representation in gaming or how minorities are treated in this environment? Be my guest, i'll gladly support you but don't try to tie it to stuff like this because it doesn't work in your favor.
He is not blaming gamers for using certain metaphors.

He's blaming gamers for using metaphors that make gamers sound like second class citizens, and yet when it comes time for those actual second class citizens to discuss their specific issues with regards to gaming, those same gamers co-opting their language to whine about localization or whatever else will shit on their problems as being trivial or even actively hostile to the very identity of the medium.

This is not a thread about language. It is ultimately a thread about hypocritical bigotry.
 
I think this thread is silly or at least not made in good faith.
It's neither of these things if you actually read OP's responses ITT and listen to the people bringing up relevant examples.
You can't blame people for using metaphors that has entered in the standard vernacular of people
This is completely wrong, people can and SHOULD be held accountable for perpetuating the use of problematic language.

At the point you become aware it's a problem and you choose to do nothing, you become part of the problem.

I
it's like saying that people shouldn't say stuff like "Sony killed the competition" or "Nintendo dropped the bomb" because there's people that actually suffered that kind of stuff.
Expressions like "treated like second class citizens" and "holding x hostage" are metaphors used in every type of conversations and not exclusive to gaming, and that aside as metaphors they do their job of accentuate the meaning of a certain concept so they are hyperbolic by definition.
These are not good analogies as they don't make light of entire classes of people suffering.

I
You want to create a topic about the lack of representation in gaming or how minorities are treated in this environment? Be my guest, i'll gladly support you but don't try to tie it to stuff like this because it doesn't work in your favor.
Nothing you have written does what you think it does, sorry.

There is a valid discussion to be had here about the entitlement that's very prominent in gaming culture, and how it perpetuates a lot of negative behaviours.
 
I've explained this above, but that one specific example we're discussing?

Yes
Keep leaping to assertions without bothering to explaining or justifying them. I went back to check our conversation from the beginning and your whole argument can be resumed to 'you're wrong and therefore tone deaf'. Which is not much of an argument. It would help if you actually said why it is that you think i'm wrong. And the fact that you bring up goopergait as some sort of pokemon to dismiss my argument is just fucking insulting on top of it.

Don't bother to reply if all you have to offer is more nonsense of that caliber.
 
As much as I find “gamers rise up” an amazing satire of our industry, I don’t really have an issue with people taking greviences over legitimately shitty business practises.
 

Nepenthe

When the music hits, you feel no pain.
Moderator
I'm confused at what everyone is mad about.
The OP is upset that gamers will shit on minorities expressing their grievances with the culture while using those minorities' language to present themselves and their problems as more legitimate.

Gamers have predictably turned this thread into one about "policing language" versus what it was originally about- gamers shitting on minorities.

Because of course.
 
The OP is upset that gamers will shit on minorities expressing their grievances with the culture while using those minorities' language to present themselves and their problems as more legitimate.

Gamers have predictably turned this thread into one about "policing language" versus what it was originally about- gamers shitting on minorities.

Because of course.
But what if the gamers are also minorities.
 
Keep leaping to assertions without bothering to explaining or justifying them.
I have fully explained every point I've made, and I'm not leaping to anything.

Your behaviour in this thread is absolutely symptomatic of the issues the OP raises.

I
I went back to check our conversation from the beginning and your whole argument can be resumed to 'you're wrong and therefore tone deaf'. Which is not much of an argument. It would help if you actually said why it is that you think i'm wrong. And the fact that you bring up goopergait as some sort of pokemon to dismiss my argument is just fucking insulting on top of it.
Then you need to go back once more and read a bit more carefully, because that isn't even close to being true.

I have literally explained all the things you claim I haven't, in very clear language.

I
Don't bother to reply if all you have to offer is more nonsense of that caliber.
Don't tell me what to do, thanks.

If you need something specific explained to you, ask. Sop far all you've done is repeat over and over that I'm, not explaining myself without even bothering to highlight anything specific.

When YOU get specific here I can, until then stop blowing hot air about it.
 
100% agreed with the OP.

What language we use, or metaphors, say a lot about ourselves. Gamers complain in a way that is not common or even exist in other mediums based on the purchase and use of products or services for entertainment.
My mother describes going to her job as a "fresh hell", and she wants to "murder" her boss. Her back is "killing" her. What does that say about my mother? - who is a saint btw.

I have a bottomless bag of chestnuts from interactions at retail with similar metaphorical stake-raising.

The thing is, we all know this particular conversation is going beyond the basic pendantry of language and circumstances. There is a political and sociocognitive component that, by not addressing is intellectually dishonest, and I don't appreciate the way you draw lines of intersectional identity at "gamer" to make your point, which doesn't even hold true.
 
He is not blaming gamers for using certain metaphors.

He's blaming gamers for using metaphors that make gamers sound like second class citizens, and yet when it comes time for those actual second class citizens to discuss their specific issues with regards to gaming, those same gamers co-opting their language to whine about localization or whatever else will shit on their problems as being trivial or even actively hostile to the very identity of the medium.

This is not a thread about language. It is ultimately a thread about hypocritical bigotry.
Honestly I thought this was a thread about diluting the meaning of the original movement by parodying it, which is something I can agree with. If this really is a thread about the hypocrisy in games, im going to have to say this wasnt made in good faith. Because you use certain language you must automatically be for the original position even though your intention was never about that issue but really just taking the downtrodden aspect of it and applying it to a new, probably way less important thing that had no relation to the original context outside of the phrase? Now dont get me wrong here, personally I dont use this kind of language and really everyone should be for diversity in games because its the right thing to do, but this argument is kind of ridiculous. I dont see what the plan here is, instead of explaining why these issues are important, you are trying to shame people by waiting for them to use a term? I agree with the end goal, but the methodology is really odd if thats the case, am I missing something?
 
There's a lot of people not getting the initial premise, or willfully ignoring it.

The problem isn't the basic use of hyperbole, so much of the gaming community's language is tied into a narrative of oppression.

This is not only stupid and insensitive to plenty of people who are actually oppressed, it feeds into a system that enables the worst elements of our culture to act out.

Take loot boxes, thread after thread on this very forum (one known to be left leaning and well moderated) was full of people claiming all sorts of unsubstantiated nonsense. "EA is creating thousands of problems gamblers." "This would be better if we could see the odds and they items were resellable", even "won't someone think of the children". None of it based on more than people not liking loot boxes, which is fine but they were trying to label it as something more.

The problem isn't not liking loot boxes, it was the vehement insistence that this is an "evil" practice, "insidious" or the classic "predatory". The language used elevates it from a simple consumer issue into some jumped up crusade. Gaming is full of this self righteous nonsense.
Louder for the people in the back.
 
My mother describes going to her job as a "fresh hell", and she wants to "murder" her boss. Her back is "killing" her. What does that say about my mother? - who is a saint btw.
That language is not directly reductive of an actual class of people, so it's a poor comparison.

Who you're speaking with also helps dictate the kind of language you can use. Sometimes you need to moderate language around specific people that would usually be ok.


He is not blaming gamers for using certain metaphors.

He's blaming gamers for using metaphors that make gamers sound like second class citizens, and yet when it comes time for those actual second class citizens to discuss their specific issues with regards to gaming, those same gamers co-opting their language to whine about localization or whatever else will shit on their problems as being trivial or even actively hostile to the very identity of the medium.

This is not a thread about language. It is ultimately a thread about hypocritical bigotry.
Ultimately this is very much true.
 
My mother describes going to her job as a "fresh hell", and she wants to "murder" her boss. Her back is "killing" her. What does that say about my mother? - who is a saint btw.

I have a bottomless bag of chestnuts from interactions at retail with similar metaphorical stake-raising.

The thing is, we all know this particular conversation is going beyond the basic pendantry of language and circumstances. There is a political and sociocognitive component that, by not addressing is intellectually dishonest, and I don't appreciate the way you draw lines of intersectional identity at "gamer" to make your point, which doesn't even hold true.
When you interact with people face to face, there is context. You use different language depending on who you are talking to and what the situation is.

Gamers demands and complaints are very different than the interactions you describe.
 
I think OP's grievance is legitimate and worthy of discussion.

I don't think this is the best way to frame it and the examples given work against the point being made.

Those are my thoughts on this thread and i hope i'm not considered a bigot gamer who's #risingup.

For whatever's worth, i'm privileged in some ways and marginalized in other ways. And no, i don't mean by being a 'gamer'. Which is something i have never called myself lol
 
100% agreed with the OP.

What language we use, or metaphors, say a lot about ourselves. Gamers complain in a way that is not common or even exist in other mediums based on the purchase and use of products or services for entertainment.
I can tell you have a PhD in psychology.
 

Nepenthe

When the music hits, you feel no pain.
Moderator
If this really is a thread about the hypocrisy in games, im going to have to say this wasnt made in good faith.
The thread was made in perfectly good faith.

The OP feels that gamers simultaneously use language they take from minorities to complain about trivial matters while simultaneously telling minorities that their problems don't matter. It's the age-old issue with, for example, being black: your culture is valued outside of black people's actual participation in it.

And honestly, if you are using language like "X Lives Matter" and also telling black women that advocating for better representation is a problem, you're a bigot. Case closed. And we have a lot of that not just on this forum, but on gaming platforms that are a lot less porgressively-minded than ERA is. Again, just pop on over to the Overwatch forums to see what Blizzard will let people get away with, despite the fact that they own one of the most progressive IPs in gaming's recent history.

This thread is outlining a general problem with the overall fact that gaming was misconstrued as as a safe space for white boys despite the fact that minorities have always been in the culture too.
 
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You want to create a topic about the lack of representation in gaming or how minorities are treated in this environment? Be my guest, i'll gladly support you but don't try to tie it to stuff like this because it doesn't work in your favor.
Those topics are made weekly and are often met with dismissal.
 
"Co-opting language" is?

Or "held hostage"?

I was addressing - poorly - that your perfectly reasonable opinion that I share doesn't matter the second you said "co-opting" - the trap already sprung, and you are marginalizing the oppressed as such.

There is no "co-opting" as a feature of language, unless you mean loanwords. It's a feature of political word games.
The op used co-opting.
 
And honestly, if you are using language like "X Lives Matter" and also telling black women that advocating for better representation is a problem, you're a bigot. Case closed.
I mean, if you are telling black women that advocating for better representation is a problem, you are a bigot regardless of using the term. Im not sure where the term factors in is my point
 

Nepenthe

When the music hits, you feel no pain.
Moderator
I mean, if you are telling black women that advocating for better representation is a problem, you are a bigot regardless of using the term. Im not sure where the term factors in
The term factors into the issue of how majority groups will co-opt minority language and culture. This has been an issue in society since forever. But people seem confused by or willfully ignorant of the fact that the OP is appropriately pointing out the way the issue manifests in gaming culture. I'm simultaneously not surprised and flabbergasted that people aren't getting it, or are actually arguing that the OP is the real problem here.
 
The term factors into the issue of how majority groups will co-opt minority language and culture. This has been an issue in society since forever. But people seem confused by or willfully ignorant of the fact that the OP is appropriately pointing out the way the issue manifests in gaming culture. I'm simultaneously not surprised and flabbergasted that people aren't getting it, or are actually arguing that the OP is the real problem here.
But why is it a bad thing? Because it is making light of very serious issues or because they arent supporting the original issue?
 
The internet actively rewards strong language with lots of attention with the strongest language receiving the most attention. All being milquetoast responder to anything gets you is lost in the shuffle. Come up with a solution for this and the online rhetoric will calm down a whole lot.
 
I do think some perspective would do the consumer side of the industry some good. It's entertainment. You can survive without entertainment. Sony isn't obliged to feed the world. Nintendo isn't Ronny Cox from Total Recall charging you for the air you breathe. If principles and having your voice heard are that important to you, appreciate that voting with your dollars -or not- is as loud a voice as you'll ever have, and it is a collectively very loud voice. But attempting to change things with internet vitriol is a futile, self-defeating quest.
 

Nepenthe

When the music hits, you feel no pain.
Moderator
But why is it a bad thing? Because it is making light of very serious issues or because they arent supporting the original issue?
Both, because the issue the OP is pointing out is specifically the hypocrisy of gamers in finding minority struggle appealing while also being hostile to those same struggles when they perceive them as an inconvenience or an indictment.
 
He is not blaming gamers for using certain metaphors.

He's blaming gamers for using metaphors that make gamers sound like second class citizens, and yet when it comes time for those actual second class citizens to discuss their specific issues with regards to gaming, those same gamers co-opting their language to whine about localization or whatever else will shit on their problems as being trivial or even actively hostile to the very identity of the medium.

This is not a thread about language. It is ultimately a thread about hypocritical bigotry.
That's where "i think it's not in good faith" from my first post comes from, I think the thread wanted to be about language because both the title and the original post pointed in that direction but then understood the error shifted the core meaning of it to make it discussion worthy.

This is completely wrong, people can and SHOULD be held accountable for perpetuating the use of problematic language.
At the point you become aware it's a problem and you choose to do nothing, you become part of the problem.
There is so much "problematic language" in everyday's conversations that even you will surely use and aware of them towards every kind or type of things (race, social status, animals, etc. etc.) that if you were to get rid of it all of a sudden you will have an hard time making up sentences in your brain. Even when really bad there are some that are a standard and sadly bound to stay no matter how long you fight it.

These are not good analogies as they don't make light of entire classes of people suffering.
I'm sorry? Are you trying to say that if in a joint effort all war survivors were to say that using phrases like "dropped the bomb" or analogous phrases your response would be "it doesn't make light of you and your situation"?
Mind you i'm aware that the example here is unlikely but the concept is solid.
 
I have fully explained every point I've made, and I'm not leaping to anything.

Your behaviour in this thread is absolutely symptomatic of the issues the OP raises.



Then you need to go back once more and read a bit more carefully, because that isn't even close to being true.

I have literally explained all the things you claim I haven't, in very clear language.



Don't tell me what to do, thanks.

If you need something specific explained to you, ask. Sop far all you've done is repeat over and over that I'm, not explaining myself without even bothering to highlight anything specific.

When YOU get specific here I can, until then stop blowing hot air about it.
Oi don't quote me when i never said those things :P
eheheheheh for a sec i thought someone entered my account and continued posting with my name
 

Nepenthe

When the music hits, you feel no pain.
Moderator
That's where "i think it's not in good faith" from my first post comes from, I think the thread wanted to be about language because both the title and the original post pointed in that direction but then understood the error shifted the core meaning of it to make it discussion worthy.
OP put the point me, astro, and others are merely repeating right there in the opening. It's literally the third sentence:

Some of you will act like the most marginalized group on the planet, then completely roll your eyes when an actual marginalized group has a complaint RELATED TO GAMING, such as asking for better representation
So either people aren't reading the OP at all, they are tone-policing because they're uncomfortable, or they are being willfully obtuse to distract from the point. The OP said exactly what his argument was.
 
It is very frustrating to see gamers co-op the language of marginalized groups (when it comes to real life issues) and apply it to themselves when the industry does something they don’t like, even when they deserve to be criticized. And then that same group will overlook, wave off gaming related issues those actual marginalized groups have with the industry.
If this is your intent of your OP statement, then ... yeah... I agree with that. As a marginalized group.
 
That's where "i think it's not in good faith" from my first post comes from, I think the thread wanted to be about language because both the title and the original post pointed in that direction but then understood the error shifted the core meaning of it to make it discussion worthy.
No. Fuck that. The add on is a clearer version of what was said the first time.
 
I truly never seen anything like this on this site so I'm extremely confused about who op is talking to. Like I've seen hyperbole and it seems everyone is ok with that.....but who is using this hyperbole and then going to minorities and make light of their suffering. I'm truly lost.
 
There is so much "problematic language" in everyday's conversations that even you will surely use and aware of them towards every kind or type of things (race, social status, animals, etc. etc.) that if you were to get rid of it all of a sudden you will have an hard time making up sentences in your brain. Even when really bad there are some that are a standard and sadly bound to stay no matter how long you fight it.
Sorry, but it's not that hard.

Certain language is obviously reductive and should be avoided as there is literally no benefit to it.

And for other things that could upset individuals but aren't inherently problematic, you just have to know your audience. No one is going to blame you for saying something that offends someone if you had no idea they would find it offensive, at that point it's up to the offended person to let you know what the issue is and for your to moderate your language around them.


I'm sorry? Are you trying to say that if in a joint effort all war survivors were to say that using phrases like "dropped the bomb" or analogous phrases your response would be "it doesn't make light of you and your situation"?
Mind you i'm aware that the example here is unlikely but the concept is solid.
War survivor are not an oppressed class. Language that is tone-deaf or reductive to the struggles of oppressed classes and peoples should ALWAYS be avoided.

Language that could upset people with specific experiences like death of loved ones in war is not the same, and while it might still be best to try to avoid such language you can't always avoid offending people. At this point you just need to pay attention and listen to individuals and moderate your language accordingly.
 
Both, because the issue the OP is pointing out is specifically the hypocrisy of gamers in finding minority struggle appealing while also being hostile to those same struggles when they perceive them as an inconvenience or an indictment.
I agree with the first one for sure, abusing a term weakens it. The second one I will respectfully disagree on, the implication of it really is if you use the terms its okay as long as you support the original. Your point is the hypocrisy, but really the using of the term I feel has very little to do with the original issue outside of a social conscious term. You dont need to use the term to be a bigot, I think our difference here is how much weight we put in the connection between the term and the original issue. As long as it doesnt conflict in any way with the original point I dont feel there is a substantial enough connection
 
There's a lot of people not getting the initial premise, or willfully ignoring it.

The problem isn't the basic use of hyperbole, so much of the gaming community's language is tied into a narrative of oppression.

This is not only stupid and insensitive to plenty of people who are actually oppressed, it feeds into a system that enables the worst elements of our culture to act out.

Take loot boxes, thread after thread on this very forum (one known to be left leaning and well moderated) was full of people claiming all sorts of unsubstantiated nonsense. "EA is creating thousands of problems gamblers." "This would be better if we could see the odds and they items were resellable", even "won't someone think of the children". None of it based on more than people not liking loot boxes, which is fine but they were trying to label it as something more.

The problem isn't not liking loot boxes, it was the vehement insistence that this is an "evil" practice, "insidious" or the classic "predatory". The language used elevates it from a simple consumer issue into some jumped up crusade. Gaming is full of this self righteous nonsense.
I dunno, I think that lootboxes are pretty bad and predatory. And loot boxes and things like that in games sort of bank of whales though this type of predatory behavior...and if you go depending on who you talk to , you can hear the use of the exact term whale. I do think lootboxes are bad, predatory and insidious. I say this a black guy who primarly agrees with the point in the OP

But don't use that point down play, this real thing, real courts are deciding is actually bad because of the exact things you are saying its bad.
 
I truly never seen anything like this on this site so I'm extremely confused about who op is talking to. Like I've seen hyperbole and it seems everyone is ok with that.....but who is using this hyperbole and then going to minorities and make light of their suffering. I'm truly lost.
Go any thread related to minorities and you will see people downplaying even the most smallest thing.

The only time people will act like its a real problem is when system wars are involved. Sadly this website does not enforce any kind of rules to this behavior or language but will ban you for “lazy dev rhetoric” are you kidding me?????
 
I don't understand how "content being held hostage" relates to the rest of the subject. I get where you're coming from with your other examples and broad point, but I can't think any tangible, negative effects of the use of this phrase. Its also pretty acurate in the case of something like Tira in Soulcalibur 6.

I'm not saying this to be difficult, I'm genuinely trying to understand.
 
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All i get from people repeatedly using this meme lately is that they really want to bring that shit into Era instead of leaving it in the cesspools it belongs.
I don't know what cesspool you're referring to since it's a completely ironic meme but I guess it's over your head. Don't try and come at me.
 
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