FIA Formula One 2018 |OT| Halo: Racing Evolved

I think it's premature to dismiss Ricciardo for a poor run of form after suffering from numerous reliability issues in the last few races, and being sidelined, unintentionally or not, by his decision to join Renault. Let's face it, he's not as quick as Max, but he has generally always been within a tenth or two. Let's also not forgot that he beat quadruple World Champion Vettel in the same car.
 
Ricciardo has gone from an A list driver to B list for me. His career will most likely die at Renault. Such a goddamn shame.
I'd have said Verstappen has gone to B list because he only finished one position ahead of his teammate who had a damaged front wing for the entire race ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
Ricciardo explained himself on sky after the race. He said while the front wing was an issue for his pace, the first few laps where Max was able to get through the field quicker was the big difference. He said there was room for improvement on his side there. No big deal, people are making too much of it.

They are both very close to each other, with Max slightly ahead in quali by a tenth or so.
 
Many seem to just hand waive this away as apparently Vettel not caring because he wanted out.

I don't believe that for a second.
or people say he didnt adapt quickly to the 2014 rules with less downforce and different PU's. He had just had years of a dominant car that he adapted a driving style to, where Ricciardo stepped up from a lesser Toro Rosso.
 
or people say he didnt adapt quickly to the 2014 rules with less downforce and different PU's. He had just had years of a dominant car that he adapted a driving style to, where Ricciardo stepped up from a lesser Toro Rosso.
They do say that too.

At the end of the day, the driver has to drive the car he is given to the best of his ability no matter its deficiencies. A trait that the likes of Hamilton and Alonso have always been credited with having.
 
I think it's premature to dismiss Ricciardo for a poor run of form after suffering from numerous reliability issues in the last few races, and being sidelined, unintentionally or not, by his decision to join Renault. Let's face it, he's not as quick as Max, but he has generally always been within a tenth or two. Let's also not forgot that he beat quadruple World Champion Vettel in the same car.
There has been a noticeable downturn in his performance since he announced he was leaving to join Renault. Probably not a coincidence (whether that be down to Daniel or the team).
 
Many seem to just hand waive this away as apparently Vettel not caring because he wanted out.

I don't believe that for a second.
I believe the truth is somewhere in the middle. Vettel was allowed to have a bad year being disappointed with their new car and the issues they had and Danny was more motivated for sure. At the same time I do consider Ric better than Vettel and he has shown some pretty strong performances. Right now I consider Lewis / Max (Alonso too) on a different tier above everyone else and after them I'd put Ricciardo then Vettel. Will be interesting to see LeClerc vs Vettel. And by the way I was thinking yesterday how much I respected Rosberg since the beginning of his career and in the end, against probably the fastest driver right now, he didn't do bad at all. Underrated driver, he would probably beat Vettel on the same car.
 
Its amazing just how bad this championship ended up being. It felt like it would build up to a colossal battle 2 months ago and now it is just poo. Big thanks to Vettel for that!


On a side note, I was always the guy who accepted team orders, because it is a no brainer, but being a Ferrari supporter it was always a case of receiving boos each time the team applied it (yes the schumacher years were bad indeed), but I was extremely puzzled to see Ferrari letting Raikkonen keep his third place in Austria (I think?), not making room for Vettel in Monza start and generally keeping away from team orders...

Mercedes on the other hand obviously used team orders to their advantage.

So I hope that some people will at least stop giving Ferrari the middle finger anymore and realize that team orders are a thing in Formula 1 and there is no damn shame about it (unless you do it like that Austria Ferrari thing which was an isolated case anyway).
 
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I don't think any driver should be judged on one season, or even a fraction of a season. Ricciardo has done some excellent results in this PU era, snatching a surprising amount of wins for the car he had. Vettel had a bad season so Ricciardo beat him, but this shouldn't be used to either overestimate Ricciardo or to underestimate a 4 times champion. Ricciardo has often outpaced Verstappen these past years while also handling the car better (tyres, crashes, driving style, etc.). Early in the year Ricciardo was doing great, including winning in Monaco while Max was busy being stupid. Tables turned for some races now, but Ricciardo's car's reliability has been horrible too, even when he didn't retire he often had issues slowing him down.

But also keep in mind that Marko and co. have been talking about how they want to win titles with Max in the future all the while Ricciardo was the one winning races and scoring more points, not to mention Red Bull's general preference for Max, including that time he disobeyed a team order after which they did a 180 and ended up defending him for some odd reason. Ricciardo has no future in Red Bull because the team wants to bet it all on Max, the results he's shown would definitely warrant him a seat for the time being (compare it to the "number 2" drivers in the top teams from the past few years: Raikkonen, Bottas, Massa, Webber, Kovalainen, etc. - Ricciardo has done pretty damn well in comparison). No reason to stay in a team that does not support you in any way, and with the new regulations coming up being in a factory team could be an excellent choice - I mean, it worked wonders for Hamilton who moved to a team that was definitely not poised to dominate the entire PU era.
 
A decent article about the Sochi team orders issue.

"You need to weigh it up. Do I want to be the baddie on Sunday evening for many of the right reasons or the idiot in Abu Dhabi at the end of the season? I would rather be the baddie today and not the idiot at the end of the year."

That is how Mercedes Formula 1 boss Toto Wolff justified his decision to impose team orders for Valtteri Bottas to hand victory in the Russian Grand Prix to team-mate Lewis Hamilton.

"I agree it's tough and maybe we are playing too safe. But I have seen freak results, things overturned quickly and this season we have seen it comes in waves. Ferrari is the dominant car for two or three races and then it's us again. So you cannot take today's performance for granted."

"You need to consider the championship and if it at the end five or three points are missing, you are the biggest idiot on the planet of having prioritised Valtteri's single race result in Sochi over the championship."

Vettel, for the record, said he backed Mercedes' decision. "In the position they were in," he said, "it was a no-brainer what they did today. So maybe not all the questions are justified."
So I hope that some people will at least stop giving Ferrari the middle finger anymore and realize that team orders are a thing in Formula 1 and there is no damn shame about it (unless you do it like that Austria Ferrari thing which was an isolated case anyway).
Ferrari get most of their shit for team orders for using them when they were banned. "Fernando is faster than you" and all that.

Of course the reason they were banned is Austria 2002.

Austria 2002 was the 6th race of a 17 race season. Schumacher had won 4 of the 5 opening races and was already more than 2 race wins ahead of his nearest "competitor" Juan Pablo Montoya. The Ferrari that year was so dominant it only lost 2 races, Monaco because it's Monaco and Malaysia due to a first lap incident and engine failure.

It's a completely different scenario to the sharp end of a very competitive championship battle where every point might count.
 
A decent article about the Sochi team orders issue.




Ferrari get most of their shit for team orders for using them when they were banned. "Fernando is faster than you" and all that.

Of course the reason they were banned is Austria 2002.

Austria 2002 was the 6th race of a 17 race season. Schumacher had won 4 of the 5 opening races and was already more than 2 race wins ahead of his nearest "competitor" Juan Pablo Montoya. The Ferrari that year was so dominant it only lost 2 races, Monaco because it's Monaco and Malaysia due to a first lap incident and engine failure.

It's a completely different scenario to the sharp end of a very competitive championship battle where every point might count.
You're not wrong in that Mercedes was right to use team orders. You're wrong in implying Ferrari using team orders with only 35% of the season down was key, when for example Red Bull used a team order in 2013 on the second race.
 
Yeah yesterday was unnecessary as I said already but Austria 2002 was as excessive as it can ever get. Maybe Toto is actually still afraid of the Ferraris. To be fair, at some point the reds looked to have the upper hand, I think it was right before Germany. In retrospect I wish Vettel hadn't made those mistakes...

edit: ^^ Multi 21 was an order to maintain positions, not let the driver pass.
 
A decent article about the Sochi team orders issue.




Ferrari get most of their shit for team orders for using them when they were banned. "Fernando is faster than you" and all that.

Of course the reason they were banned is Austria 2002.

Austria 2002 was the 6th race of a 17 race season. Schumacher had won 4 of the 5 opening races and was already more than 2 race wins ahead of his nearest "competitor" Juan Pablo Montoya. The Ferrari that year was so dominant it only lost 2 races, Monaco because it's Monaco and Malaysia due to a first lap incident and engine failure.

It's a completely different scenario to the sharp end of a very competitive championship battle where every point might count.
I fully agree with you. I said it so myself that Austria 2002 was a fuck up. And Barrichello made sure to make it a big deal as well. I am not saying Ferrari should not have been criticized for it. What I am saying is that it is time people either stop acting as if team orders is a bad thing, or if it is a bad thing then to criticize everyone else as well.

Ferrari was wrong not to issue team orders in Austria and Monza and I am pretty sure that -in part- they did that just so that people can cut them some slack on this matter. Mercedes on the other hand has used team orders multiple times this year and I stress it again, it is absolutely the correct thing to do.

Also, allow me to point out that while Ferrari doesnt know how to be discrete (regarding the Fernando is faster than you thing), dont for a minute think that other teams did not issue tema orders during the ban... it was happening all around, discretely ofcourse. Which is why they allowed them again, since everyone was still doing it and it became a farce.
 
At the end of the day, it's a team sport.

People tend to forget that, because the WDC is much more high profile than the WCC, but teams should do whatever is best for their team.

It's part of why I like the idea of 3 cars per team, because it would allow for more team strategy and make the sport even more obviously team based. Of course if that doesn't appeal to you it's probably just as big a reason to hate the idea of 3 car teams.
 
My only problem with team orders is always the wishy washy explanations. Like now that Hamilton has problem with his tires, let him trough (bullshit). Just say it straight that Hamilton might need these extra points, let him trough. It's like with Kimi for several times where he has been bit frustrated with Ferrari not telling it straight and trying to bs their way around to let Vettel pass.
 
Exactly. This is a team sport. I dont know why it had to take so many years for a lot of people to come to gripes with that... I honestly dont. Look at how many people prepare these cars, the development, the logistics, its literally a huge amount of people that play their role for these wins. Its arrogant to think that they dont deserve a say when it comes to maximizing the team's potential to win.

Which is why I ALWAYS valued the Constructors Championship more than the driver's one. People tend to make heroes out of the drivers (and I could relate to this back when these guys were literally risking their lives) but they forget all the sacrifices the team has to endure to secure these wins.
 
Like now that Hamilton has problem with his tires, let him trough (bullshit). Just say it straight that Hamilton might need these extra points, let him trough. It's like with Kimi for several times where he has been bit frustrated with Ferrari not telling it straight and trying to bs their way around to let Vettel pass.
They should do that yes. The fans would go even more insane if Mercedes/Ferrari outright admitted team orders but maybe they'll finally grow up and accept it.

I've already seen dozens of people asking to ban team orders but they're either just stupid reactionary fans or haven't been around when team orders actually were banned. Because here is a secret absolutely nobody knows: Banning team orders doesn't stop the teams from using them. Oh so then Bottas' pit stops suddenly takes 5 seconds longer. Or maybe he suddenly brakes late into turn whatever. It was impossible to proof team orders when they were banned.

So the fans should grow up and accept it and drivers should ask themselves why they're the ones letting their teammates through and not the other way around.
 
The problem with Mercedes is that they changed their minds about team orders during the race. It should have been decided Saturday that Bottas would have to give up his position, and they could have done it cleanly using pit stop strategies. Instead they screwed it up so bad Hamilton would have lost his position to Vettel if the Ferrari had more pace.

Toto Wolff is a fucking idiot.
 
They do say that too.

At the end of the day, the driver has to drive the car he is given to the best of his ability no matter its deficiencies. A trait that the likes of Hamilton and Alonso have always been credited with having.
Nah, 2009 Hamilton was dreadful most of the time. Especially the first half of the season.
 
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The problem with Mercedes is that they changed their minds about team orders during the race. It should have been decided Saturday that Bottas would have to give up his position, and they could have done it cleanly using pit stop strategies. Instead they screwed it up so bad Hamilton would have lost his position to Vettel if the Ferrari had more pace.

Toto Wolff is a fucking idiot.
You can't cover every eventuality before the race. Mercedes stated that they were worried about Hamilton falling prey to Vettel after blistering his tyres when he overtook him. They're fighting for both the drivers and the constructors championship and they made exactly the right call. It's better to have a 1-2 with the only member of your team who can (realistically) win the title in 1st place if you believe the alternative could well be a 1-3 and have your main driver and your team losing points.

I like Bottas but he'd have been naive if he thought that they'd let him win under all circumstances. There was always going to be the possibility of something occurring they hadn't planned for that meant he'd need to let Hamilton past and that's exactly what happened.
 
They should do that yes. The fans would go even more insane if Mercedes/Ferrari outright admitted team orders but maybe they'll finally grow up and accept it.
Personally I don't think they would. It was a nice idea banning team orders but let's be honest not only did it negatively impact on the series as people aren't stupid and saw it was being done anyway but it's also unfair on the teams. Let's face it the drivers are employees of the team, as far as the likes of Ferrari and Mercedes are concerned the constructors title is the main aim each year. That's what brings them the money not the drivers championship.

I think people understand team orders are a necessary part of the sport in certain circumstances. This isn't a case of Barrichello/Schumacher in Austria where he was forced to move aside after just 6 races. This is a point in Championship when Hamilton is Mercedes only chance to win both titles and I think viewers understand that.
 
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Nah, 2009 Hamilton was dreadful most of the time. Especially the first half of the season.
In 2009, McLaren fell hopelessly behind because the went all-in with their 2008 car. They completely dropped the ball on their new design. They also failed to notice the loophole that Toyota, Williams and especially Brawn discovered with their Double-deck-diffuser. This was very apparent by the performances of brawns AND toyota cars in the beginning of the season. Later on McLaren, Ferrari and especially Red Bull caught on with wins for Hamilton, Raikkonen, Webber and Vettel.
2009 ended with RedBull effectively asserted itself with the best car of the grid. They went on to build the most dominant car for the next four seasons.
 
I wonder if...
Let's say Hamilton has the WDC in the bag and there are 2 races left which are also dominated by Mercedes. If Mercedes then decides to gift Bottas both wins, would the fans be okay with that?

My opinion on that is: No they shouldn't be okay with it. You can't hate letting the better racer through and simultaneously applaud gifting the win to a slower driver. I'd feel terrible for not earning my win if I was a driver too.
 
I wonder if...
Let's say Hamilton has the WDC in the bag and there are 2 races left which are also dominated by Mercedes. If Mercedes then decides to gift Bottas both wins, would the fans be okay with that?

My opinion on that is: No they shouldn't be okay with it. You can't hate letting the better racer through and simultaneously applaud gifting the win to a slower driver. I'd feel terrible for not earning my win if I was a driver too.
I mean I don't think they'll even need to gift Bottas the wins. As long as the car is good enough, Lewis will just stop trying after he wins the WDC.
 
In 2009, McLaren fell hopelessly behind because the went all-in with their 2008 car. They completely dropped the ball on their new design. They also failed to notice the loophole that Toyota, Williams and especially Brawn discovered with their Double-deck-diffuser. This was very apparent by the performances of brawns AND toyota cars in the beginning of the season. Later on McLaren, Ferrari and especially Red Bull caught on with wins for Hamilton, Raikkonen, Webber and Vettel.
2009 ended with RedBull effectively asserted itself with the best car of the grid. They went on to build the most dominant car for the next four seasons.
I think half of McLaren's problem was that they got their front wing design all wrong, it was doing the opposite of what it was supposed to be doing or some shit. Or they put the endplates on backwards or something.
 
I wonder if...
Let's say Hamilton has the WDC in the bag and there are 2 races left which are also dominated by Mercedes. If Mercedes then decides to gift Bottas both wins, would the fans be okay with that?

My opinion on that is: No they shouldn't be okay with it. You can't hate letting the better racer through and simultaneously applaud gifting the win to a slower driver. I'd feel terrible for not earning my win if I was a driver too.
They will be ok because it will be like giving Bottas baxk for the support earlier. Ferrari did the same with Barrichello when they had secured the title
 
I wonder if...
Let's say Hamilton has the WDC in the bag and there are 2 races left which are also dominated by Mercedes. If Mercedes then decides to gift Bottas both wins, would the fans be okay with that?

My opinion on that is: No they shouldn't be okay with it. You can't hate letting the better racer through and simultaneously applaud gifting the win to a slower driver. I'd feel terrible for not earning my win if I was a driver too.
They won't swap them around just to give Bottas a win. If Bottas is ahead they'll probably tell them both to just bring it home.

So its still a team order, just one to say "don't race" rather than one to say "let him past"
 
Could care less about team orders. They never bothered me and I have been watching since the 90's. Too much on the line and this sport is stupid expensive. If you blew a championship from failing to put your team first, you should be fired. I much rather have it clearly out in the open and an accepted part of the sport than the horrible experiment where they tried to "ban" it and then it just became about smoke and mirrors. That was far more insulting to the fan base than a teammate letting another one past.

This season was a tremendous disappointment for me. I gained a lot more respect for Hamilton and lost some for Vettel. At critical moments Vettel flinched and made some bad driver errors. Ferrari strategy was also horrible multiple times. Hockenhiem is when Vettel not only gifted Hamilton points, but momentum. Hamilton seems to be a driver very sensitive to momentum. When things go bad, he gets flustered. When he gets it going though, he can become near flawless. Vettel blew it in my view. Sure there was some bad luck again, but I believe some mentality played in to it as well. Hamilton was the stronger driver this season and deserves the win. Vettel who made a name for himself with his wet weather performance in the Torro Rosso at Monza now seems to has lost his gift in the wet and Hamilton seems to be in a class of his own when the rain comes.

It is a shame to have both seats of the Ferrari occupied by drivers that I think have lost their edge. Glad to see Kimi moving on if he can help any other team with development, but as for driving for wins, he has been done long before this season. Vettel, next season will be the breaking point. Assuming Ferrari can come with a decent car, I would like to see a world championship drive, if not, fuck off and bring in fresh blood. I would have paid so much money to have seen Alonso maintain his drive at Ferrari and been behind the wheel the past two seasons.
 
I'm a big Schumacher Fan, and even I know he won '94 by hitting Hill's car in the right spot to make him retire, never mind the countless other times he bend/break the rules to win.
lead early)

I give him '94 with no ill will. The way the FIA fucked him all season (because he got out to such a big lead early) was shameful and Hill winning because of that would have been a complete joke.
 
lead early)

I give him '94 with no ill will. The way the FIA fucked him all season (because he got out to such a big lead early) was shameful and Hill winning because of that would have been a complete joke.
Yep, this is also too often forgotten. Schumacher has been stolen a ridiculous amount of points that year to keep the season alive (with Senna dead there was no way anyone was beating Schumacher that year legitimately), so the fact he played slightly dirty on the final race doesn't anger me, especially considering they did nothing a few years earlier when Senna rammed Prost out at a much higher speed with 20+ cars coming behind potentially causing a serious accident. Also that year's Benetton was a bit messy, and the whole handling of Senna's accident has been poor. Overall it was a weird time in terms of regulations and consequences, but the best driver alive in 1994 won the championship deservedly, I don't think this is even debatable.
 
According to AMuS, it seems that Ferrari's engine isn't delivering the extra power anymore since Singapore. Speculation is about an extra, more precise sensor the FIA installed to monitor Ferrari, but the exact timeline is unclear.
Long story short, Merc are cruising with their superior engine again.
 
According to AMuS, it seems that Ferrari's engine isn't delivering the extra power anymore since Singapore. Speculation is about an extra, more precise sensor the FIA installed to monitor Ferrari, but the exact timeline is unclear.
Long story short, Merc are cruising with their superior engine again.
BOT dis say they weren't showing the same kind of acceleration out of corners as they were previously.

So ferrera weren't cheating like red bull didnt have flexi wings lol.
 
According to AMuS, it seems that Ferrari's engine isn't delivering the extra power anymore since Singapore. Speculation is about an extra, more precise sensor the FIA installed to monitor Ferrari, but the exact timeline is unclear.
I'm sure all those people who were appalled by Lewis daring to suggest Ferrari might be up to some funny business will be lining up to offer their contrition.
 
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