Star Trek Franchise |OT| To Boldly Go.....

Well that’s Voyager finished. I know a lot of people don’t like Endgame and always wish we saw more after Voyager got home but I really do love that final shot of them being escorted back to Earth by the other Starfleet ships.

Moving onto The Enterprise rewatch now. Been a while since I’ve seen it.
 
They wouldn't have had to have a huge number of scenes after Voyager got home. Maybe one where Barclay meets one of the crew, a scene with Tom and his Dad maybe. Or a bittersweet ending of Janeway getting home and Mark gives her a puppy and she meets his new family.
 
They wouldn't have had to have a huge number of scenes after Voyager got home. Maybe one where Barclay meets one of the crew, a scene with Tom and his Dad maybe. Or a bittersweet ending of Janeway getting home and Mark gives her a puppy and she meets his new family.
That really seems like something that just wasn't going to happen in a show like Voyager in the early 2000s. It's amazing enough DS9 has as much of a denouement as it does, but even that is undercut by the last minute "wrap this wormhole hokum up" stuff.
 

KSweeley

Community Resettler
Member
It was still him though I take your point. He overwrote his own personal timeline so that in practicality was an anomaly that never happened.

The Harry Kim that died did come back though in STO

This episode marks the death of the "original" Harry Kim, who is replaced by a duplicate. The "real" Kim's body is apparently left to float through space. Though it may have been retrieved at some point off screen. The non-canon game Star Trek Online suggests that the Kobali rescued his body at some point.

The same Kobali that resurrected Lyndsay_Ballard as a new life form.
I wonder why the events in Star Trek Online isn't canon.
 
Regarding "Endgame": Before it, I don't think I'd ever seen a show that gave you a satisfying conclusion to the series and then decide to TAKE IT AWAY FROM YOU at the very end, leaving you with nothing.
 
Last edited:
Regarding "Endgame": Before it, I don't think I'd ever seen a show that gave you a satisfying conclusion to the series and then decide to TAKE IT AWAY FROM YOU at the very end, leaving you with nothing.
In what way does Endgame take away the satisfying conclusion?

Ok we don't get to see what the individual crew members get up to afterwards, but we know that they achieved their goal, they got home. That's more than satisfying enough.
I think it's safe to assume that the individual crew members would spend a hell of a long time getting debriefed, then have some leave, then be given a choice of retiring or continuing their Starfleet careers more or less as normal.


As for Star Trek Online, I really like how it continues the Prime Universe.
I think calling it fan fictiony is a bit unfair, Star Trek has felt like a fanfiction of itself in the writing of some episodes, and some of the more recent storylines in STO have been really great.
 
In what way does Endgame take away the satisfying conclusion?
At the start of the episode, Voyager actually gets home. There are fireworks and celebrations. It's tangible and concrete.

Then future-Janeway erases all of that because she wants a "better" ending.

Then current-Janeway (with the help of future-Janeway's massive temporal violation) creates the new ending, of Voyager appearing on Earth's doorstep. And then calls the show finished, with nothing more than "Yay, we blew up the Borg, and now we're on Earth's doorstep, we can see the Earth, it's right over there, The End."

The new ending that future-Janeway created was "better" in the sense that fewer people died, but it was a disaster from a filmmaking standpoint.

There's a thing in filmmaking where the last thing you see is the most important thing because it's the part everyone remembers due to it being the most recent thing that happened. A good ending can easily save a bad work, while a bad ending can easily ruin a good work. And a Voyager ending can Voyager a Voyager. But at least it didn't Enterprise itself. But it's no Star Trek VI or All Good Things (until those great endings got ruined by Generations and Nemesis).
 
Going back to Star Trek maps for a second. I would love to have seen some charting Archer and Kirk’s exploration missions. Seeing which directions they went, how far they got etc.
 
In what way does Endgame take away the satisfying conclusion?

Ok we don't get to see what the individual crew members get up to afterwards, but we know that they achieved their goal, they got home. That's more than satisfying enough.
I think it's safe to assume that the individual crew members would spend a hell of a long time getting debriefed, then have some leave, then be given a choice of retiring or continuing their Starfleet careers more or less as normal.
At the start of the episode, Voyager actually gets home. There are fireworks and celebrations. It's tangible and concrete.

Then future-Janeway erases all of that because she wants a "better" ending.

Then current-Janeway (with the help of future-Janeway's massive temporal violation) creates the new ending, of Voyager appearing on Earth's doorstep. And then calls the show finished, with nothing more than "Yay, we blew up the Borg, and now we're on Earth's doorstep, we can see the Earth, it's right over there, The End."

The new ending that future-Janeway created was "better" in the sense that fewer people died, but it was a disaster from a filmmaking standpoint.
Basically this. The original ending and aftermath of Voyager's journey was satisfying. There's a real sense of history to it: it took many years, there were a lot of successes along the way, but a lot of people died as well. Even the survivors have had to grapple with the loss of decades of their lives. Tuvok in particular has to deal with a debilitating condition that could've been solved easily had they not been thrown into the Delta Quadrant.

The show gives you all of this, and then at the very end says "actually we'd rather there be no consequences for anyone at all, so congratulations, Voyager is now safe in the Alpha Quadrant and the first hour of the show means nothing at all." Sure, some of the events leading up to that reset-button ending had weight to them, but the net effect is that the writers snapped their fingers and magically brought Voyager home because reasons.

In other words, what makes the conclusion satisfying isn't the fact that they got home. What makes it satisfying is seeing how the characters did it, and to an extent seeing how they lived afterward.
 
The thing is though, they drill the point home with Harry's cheesy speech. It's not about the conclusion, it was about the journey. You may not like it and thats fine, I'm not saying you are wrong for feeling like you should have seen more but to be honest, if anything they also went with the "have our cake and eat it to" line as well. We got to see a version of Voyager return home and what happened afterwards, I think part of that was specifically done so they didn't need to it at the end of the episode as well because they wanted to end it how they did.
 
If anyone remembers J.J. Lendl, the guy who did retro posters for the Discovery episodes, is now doing ones for the DS9 episodes which are being reviewed by The Greatest Generation podcast every week. Here's this weeks:


And last week's, the first one he did:


Pretty good! Also, check out the Greatest Generation podcast, it's great.
 
The thing is though, they drill the point home with Harry's cheesy speech. It's not about the conclusion, it was about the journey. You may not like it and thats fine, I'm not saying you are wrong for feeling like you should have seen more but to be honest, if anything they also went with the "have our cake and eat it to" line as well. We got to see a version of Voyager return home and what happened afterwards, I think part of that was specifically done so they didn't need to it at the end of the episode as well because they wanted to end it how they did.
Yeah I agree. You can intimate that everyone's going to have as good a life or better when they get back because it'll be earlier and Tuvok, Chakotay, and Seven will be fine. No one save them appears to be doing badly in the alternate timeline.
 
I'll have a look at that thanks. Been a while since I've listened to a good Star Trek podcast.
They've already done the whole run of TNG are in season 3 of DS9 now. I would recommend picking a TNG episode you like and starting there. Also, keep in mind it's a comedy podcast and the hosts are two chuckleheads who drink a lot. But, being around the same age as these guys and growing up on these shows I appreciate the humor.
 
They've already done the whole run of TNG are in season 3 of DS9 now. I would recommend picking a TNG episode you like and starting there. Also, keep in mind it's a comedy podcast and the hosts are two chuckleheads who drink a lot. But, being around the same age of these guys and growing up on these shows I appreciate the humor.
Did you ever listen to Make It So from Simply Syndicated? That was a good Trek podcast before they kind of lost the will to continue after the constant nitpicking from fans.
 
The thing is though, they drill the point home with Harry's cheesy speech. It's not about the conclusion, it was about the journey. You may not like it and thats fine, I'm not saying you are wrong for feeling like you should have seen more but to be honest, if anything they also went with the "have our cake and eat it to" line as well. We got to see a version of Voyager return home and what happened afterwards, I think part of that was specifically done so they didn't need to it at the end of the episode as well because they wanted to end it how they did.
The journey was pretty terrible too. lol
It's just a slap in the face of the whole premise of the show, because future Janeway could have stopped Voyager from traveling to Delta at any point. She could have even arrested the Maquis before Chakotay took off from Starfleet if she wanted to.
That's the one thing I think Moore brought that Braga didn't have - humanity. I have to assume that moment when Picard plays poker with the TNG crew at the end of the series was a Moore moment, and of course DS9 has an actual ending and not just "Dominion war is over kthxbye".
 
Okay that finale of Season 2 for Enterprise has got me really hyped about where the show is going next. Starting to see why people were saying it was going to become like Voyager. I honestly like this cast a lot more than I did Voyagers which is surprising me. Yeah, I wouldn’t say that it has anyone quite on the level of The Doctor or Seven (and I prefer Janeway as a captain) but they’ve done a good job fleshing our the relationships between people on the show. Like Hoshi and Phlox’s little friendship that only comes up every now and then but is super endearing or Trip and Malcolm regularly getting into messes and exploring together has been great. T’Pol, Phlox, and Trip are a mile ahead of the rest of the characters in terms of development. Travis is a total waste of a character. Bah. Probably the worst of all the shows just because he literally does nothing lol.
 
Okay that finale of Season 2 for Enterprise has got me really hyped about where the show is going next. Starting to see why people were saying it was going to become like Voyager. I honestly like this cast a lot more than I did Voyagers which is surprising me. Yeah, I wouldn’t say that it has anyone quite on the level of The Doctor or Seven (and I prefer Janeway as a captain) but they’ve done a good job fleshing our the relationships between people on the show. Like Hoshi and Phlox’s little friendship that only comes up every now and then but is super endearing or Trip and Malcolm regularly getting into messes and exploring together has been great. T’Pol, Phlox, and Trip are a mile ahead of the rest of the characters in terms of development. Travis is a total waste of a character. Bah. Probably the worst of all the shows just because he literally does nothing lol.
And that doesn't really change until maybe the last few episodes of season 4 lol but you're in for a treat in season 3, one of my favorite full seasons of any star trek show.
 
Travis is a total waste of a character. Bah. Probably the worst of all the shows just because he literally does nothing lol.
yeah they literally had no idea what to do with him, so they just did nothing

they had a couple episodes to focus on him early on, but they weren't very good

in theory he could've been in an interesting spot, since despite being low in rank among the senior officers, he had spent more time in space than anyone else

maybe his life on slow cargo ships could have given him experience he could draw on in different situations, but that doesn't really come up (well, it does a bit in season 4)
 
I like the episode with his family but man, he does nothing the rest of the time. He's basically just like Chekhov, just there.

I guess part of it is having only four seasons and the last two seasons being arc driven.
 
Ok I think I’m gonna take a break from bidding on the Star Trek Eaglemoss models, it gets a bit addictive!

I now have (or will have when they arrive):

Defiant
Enterprise 1701 Refit
Enterprise 1701 C
Enterprise 1701 D
Enterprise 1701 D from All Good Things
Enterprise 1701 E
Delta Flyer
Runabout
Reliant
Equinox
Nausicaan Fighter
Aventine
 
Man, watching Unimatrix Zero I feel so bad for Harry.

Works his arse off for 6 years incuding building an entirely new technology in the Astrometrics lab which finds a shorter route home and is used to literally save the ship multiple times, still a single Ensign.
Tom pisses about for years, commits a criminal act and gets imprisoned for a month and demoted, then pisses about for another year or two and lands both a hot wife and a promotion.

I get that Voyager has limited opportunities for advancement and not everyone can get promoted to full blown Commander, but they could've at least given him a promotion to Lieutenant at some point.
Harry is the embodiment of the bamboo ceiling I guess, same with Garrett Wang being the one denied the opportunity to direct an episode.



The journey was pretty terrible too. lol
It's just a slap in the face of the whole premise of the show, because future Janeway could have stopped Voyager from traveling to Delta at any point. She could have even arrested the Maquis before Chakotay took off from Starfleet if she wanted to.
That's the one thing I think Moore brought that Braga didn't have - humanity. I have to assume that moment when Picard plays poker with the TNG crew at the end of the series was a Moore moment, and of course DS9 has an actual ending and not just "Dominion war is over kthxbye".
My problem with Endgame is that it felt it could have been inserted into any point in the last few seasons. Endgame should have been built around the Janeway and Seven relationship at the end of the day. That is really the only reason why Janeway would go back to that point in time, but that moment hasn't really been earned and the ending doesn't really fulfil any character arcs. I understand Borg were popular antagonists, but we haven't even seen them since the beginning of that season and destroying one of their six 'hubs' that haven't been mentioned before isn't fulfilling for the series at all.

We have already seen better version of this with 'Timeless'. I would even prefer to have a follow up with the Doctor from Living Witness, tracing that journey.
 
Year of Hell is overrated a bit too much really. It was good sure but it wasn't worth the level of praise it gets sometimes.

Going to TNG though, man, the opening to Cause and Effect still sends shivers down my spine.
 
I've said it before but I find that the best Voyager episode by far is Tinker, Tenor, Doctor, Spy. It's a really fun plot and my favourite comedic episodes of all of Star Trek, it's also Picardo's favourite episode from Voyager. It introduced a species called the Overlookers and their government called the Hierarchy to the franchise that I think were only used in two episodes of Voyager but one of the few Delta Quadrant species I found interesting, they should have introduced them earlier in the show and utilised them more.
 
Last edited:
I've said it before but I find that the best Voyager episode by far is Tinker, Tenor, Doctor, Spy. It's a really fun plot and my favourite comedic episodes of all of Star Trek, it's also Picardo's favourite episode from Voyager. It introduced a species called the Overlookers and their government called the Hierarchy to the franchise that I think were only used in two episodes of Voyager but one of the few Delta Quadrant species I found interesting, they should have introduced them earlier in the show and utilised them more.
Seeing the Doctor imagining Seven, Torres and Janeway getting into a fight over him will never not be hilarious.
 
Starting to run out of space on my desk with all these Eaglemoss models. Gonna have to move them soon I think as I still have more on the way.

It makes sense it's scaled up, but I still laughed as seeing the Galaxy-sized Delta Flyer.

(Also reminds me that I always hated the runabouts. They never really fit in with the established more sleeker Federation aesthetic and there never seemed like much of a difference between them and the warp shuttles except maybe some privacy when you shit with other people :P The Delta Flyer looked cooler and felt like it differentiated itself better. Plus it stopped Voyager from destroying so many shuttles!)*

*Also in one of the season 2 episodes they do have someone throw a slight dig at Chakotay for wrecking shuttles, was pretty hilarious.
 
It makes sense it's scaled up, but I still laughed as seeing the Galaxy-sized Delta Flyer.

(Also reminds me that I always hated the runabouts. They never really fit in with the established more sleeker Federation aesthetic and there never seemed like much of a difference between them and the warp shuttles except maybe some privacy when you shit with other people :P The Delta Flyer looked cooler and felt like it differentiated itself better. Plus it stopped Voyager from destroying so many shuttles!)*

*Also in one of the season 2 episodes they do have someone throw a slight dig at Chakotay for wrecking shuttles, was pretty hilarious.
I really liked the Runabouts. I was never a fan of the boxy Shuttles so it was nice to get something with a bit more design. Shuttle design did get a bit better after that though at least.
 
I really liked the Runabouts. I was never a fan of the boxy Shuttles so it was nice to get something with a bit more design. Shuttle design did get a bit better after that though at least.
eh, I liked the boxy ones (the Type 6). They're kind of chubby and cute, but they also read as workmanlike:


It's definitely better than the excessively curved 7's.

The Type 15's are just ugly, and the Type 11 feels like a terrible mashup of the runabouts and the Class 2/Type 9's (which I do like too).
 
I think Runabouts are kind of a part of a dead-end on the design tree. If you look at the Voyager prototype that didn't get used, it has many similarities to the Runabouts.
 
Top