Why women criticise sexualised character designs |OT2| I have no pants and I must scream (READ OP)

People get real stuck on Red Sonia when it comes to designing female barbarians.
It's weird because the one fanservice character is actually the only "true" Pathfinder character (Pathfinder gives each of its classes a signature character and yeah, quite a few of the women are dressed pretty skimpy clothing though there are many women characters who are wearing clothing on the level of the other 4).
 
Frankly, from a professional standpoint, the number of artists whose portfolios largely consist of the same fucking anime cheesecake you see in the Peachette thread has absolutely lost them job opportunities.

Because frankly, you see that shit so fucking much, and I have seen so many portfolios to where I question if these artists are capable of drawing women without relying on any of the same fucking shit. But they keep doing it because, as demonstrated, it gets them exposure.


Like, there's cute appealing design, and then there's the unabashed giant tit stuff that exists for a very specific purpose.
 
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Queen Kong

kiri kiri kiri...
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Queen Kong I just wanted to say that your recent posts have led me to pick up Pillars of Eternity and Shadowrun. So thanks for that. I cannot wait to play a diverse cast.
I hope you will enjoy them!
I would start with Shadowrun Dragonfall or HK, I think they are the best ones, easiest to get into as well.
PoE is a more novel-like and it feels like a classic Infinity Engine game in the style of Baldur's gate, a lot to read in that game.

She's an iconic character in Pathfinder, Amiri of the Six Bears. It's how she was designed in the PnP version too.
As far as designs go, I don't mind exposed midriff.
 
also playing mass effect and skyrim in short succession and goddamn i am so. tired. of boob armour!!! stop it!!! not only is it blatant fanservice that looks stupid, it's super impractical and dangerous!!! fsjdflsfds im mad
This is 100% my reaction to seeing such tired tripe.

Gets all the more egregious after spending a lot of time with games that don't pull that idiocy.
 
Frankly, from a professional standpoint, the number of artists whose portfolios largely consist of the same fucking anime cheesecake you see in the Peachette thread has absolutely lost them job opportunities.
There's even a joking name for this among devs - "porn elves portfolio". There are several studios that will indeed not take you if that's all you have - and the fact it IS a joke name already tells us it's not as rare as one might wish.
 

BY2K

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Member
There's even a joking name for this among devs - "porn elves portfolio". There are several studios that will indeed not take you if that's all you have - and the fact it IS a joke name already tells us it's not as rare as one might wish.
Are we talking anime in general or specifically anime porn?
 
There's even a joking name for this among devs - "porn elves portfolio". There are several studios that will indeed not take you if that's all you have - and the fact it IS a joke name already tells us it's not as rare as one might wish.
I can't imagine the lure of Patreon riches has done much to stem the tide, either...
 
So I happened across these Samus renditions on Reddit: https://www.artstation.com/artwork/lNBbJ

I'll include the portrait below:


I need it.
Huh. I actually like the design of Samus's suit with the ugly colour scheme removed. Face looks badass too.

Arm cannon still looks goofy as hell though.

So the new direct was great and all but there was one trailer conspicuously absent from it.


I wonder why? It's such a mystery. No, really, why is Nintendo getting the skeeviest versions of franchises? Like, Senran Kaguran is a very fanservice heavy game but like...a game where you massage a girl's thighs? Really!?!
*sigh*

*goes to scrub Youtube history*
 
Are we talking anime in general or specifically anime porn?
No, just portfolios - it's not related to anime as such, but to the subject material of the art you're putting in it. When the portfolio is only nude women or women in sexy lingerie, well, it doesn't show you're someone that has a range of things you can draw.

And yes, that's an actual thing people do, and then wonder why they get a no.
 
Are we talking anime in general or specifically anime porn?
Eh kind of...okay so I've seen art school stuff like people are describing, and its not just anime, but its not quite anime porn. Its a way of drawing (usually anime) women so that even if they're fully clothed or not explicitly sexualized there's a way their breasts and hips are defined that emphasizes a physicality to them. And like, that's not a bad thing in some cases, there are of course entirely valid reasons to do a piece that way, but if your entire portfolio doesn't show that you can draw women any other way, or do anything more stylized, its not a great look
 
Part of the problem with the video game industry in general is that it is still simultaneously attempting to court both very general and hyper niche audiences at the same time, and while those two can co-exist (they have to, at some level) it's extremely uncomfortable for everyone in the former category having to deal with the inherently creepy aspects of the latter. Additionally, a big part of the problem is also the latter attempting to normalize those inherently creepy things.
 
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So the new direct was great and all but there was one trailer conspicuously absent from it.


I wonder why? It's such a mystery. No, really, why is Nintendo getting the skeeviest versions of franchises? Like, Senran Kaguran is a very fanservice heavy game but like...a game where you massage a girl's thighs? Really!?!

Pictured: Me, waiting for Marvelous to take a break between their twice yearly Senran Kagura titles to release Story of Seasons Switch
 
Are we talking anime in general or specifically anime porn?
I mean there are anime-isms that have caused people to roll their eyes. The one-fang mouth expression you see a lot definitely has been a laughable cliche.

But it's specifically the way some people seem incapable of drawing women without overtly sexualizing them, or leaning into cliches that exist only to sexualize them. It's one thing to have a sexy design, it's another thing entirely when you see the same cheesecakey shorthands that show an artist can't draw women any other way, technical prowess almost made irrelevant.

It's not even an anti-anime thing, because a lot of artists, especially those looking to get into animation within the last 10 years, have grown up with anime as a totally normalized part of their culture and artistic repertoire, or hey, they clearly learned how to do expressions via Avatar. That's fine. But it's the approach to women that sticks out.
 
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Part of the problem with the video game industry in general is that it is still simultaneously attempting to court both very general and hyper niche audiences at the same time, and while those two can co-exist (they have to, at some level) it's extremely uncomfortable for everyone in the former category having to deal with the inherently creepy aspects of the latter. Additionally, a big part of the problem is also the latter attempting to normalize those inherently creepy things.
I think the normalisation is something that gets conveniently handwaved when people argue in defence of a single instance of sexualised design as 'but creative freedom!'. It's when we get entire genres that seem unable to offer female characters without having them almost sexualised by default that it's a clear industry problem, which is where we are now. It's such a boring template for costume and art direction at this point.
 
The barbarian archetype is for some reason something I've been fine with. I think it's because I rarely see them "dolled up" and the male version is also usually very similar. But I can understand why one would have an issue with this particular design too. Also that crew looks actually quite good representation/diversity wise. Glad to have this game on my radar.

Edit: There's one more female companion not in the picture.


I guess I could add the character description from the developers site too
Due to her flawless, almost supernatural beauty, Valerie has been at the center of everyone's attention, even when she was still a child. Born into a noble Brevic family, the young girl soon became a shining star of high society. She quickly had to learn to resist the unwanted advances of her admirers, using cold arrogance and impeccable, distant manners as an impenetrable shield. Her father had chosen a great destiny for Valerie: she was supposed to become a paladin of Shelyn. However, the teachings of obedience and humbleness before the goddess of beauty and love appeared to be something that young Valerie wasn't too susceptible to - unlike the lessons of martial arts, which she mastered almost to perfection. The life of Valerie had changed dramatically when an act of blasphemy made her future path as Shelyn's paladin impossible. Having rejected the grace of the goddess, she left high society to take her fate into her own hands.

Today Valerie is not some nobleman's pampered daughter. Instead, she has become a seasoned mercenary, who has lived through dozens of battles under the banners of Swordlords. Having her gorgeous hair cut off and her silk dresses replaced by steel armor, she has broken with her past without hesitation. But is the past ready to stay behind the proud and confident mercenary? Even the kindest of gods don't take well to blasphemy, and the revenge of Shelyn may not only be harsh, but also incredibly poetic.

For those who appreciate her military talents, Valerie will become a reliable defender in every possible challenge. In battle, she uses a bastard sword and a tower shield. Valerie prefers full plate armor and defensive tactics: she waits patiently until the enemy reveals an opening, and only then she strikes with all her might.

Valerie is a natural-born leader, who can inspire and rally people. If she gets an important role in the Kingdom governance, she can show her talents not only in state defense but also in the field of diplomacy. Although she once has rejected the path of a lady in high society, Valerie still knows how to behave in aristocratic circles and how to save face in conflict situations. Though she may prefer the way of the blade, if necessary, Valerie can actively participate in diplomatic maneuvers as well as in straightforward battles.
 
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I think the normalisation is something that gets conveniently handwaved when people argue in defence of a single instance of sexualised design as 'but creative freedom!'. It's when we get entire genres that seem unable to offer female characters without having them almost sexualised by default that it's a clear industry problem, which is where we are now. It's such a boring template for costume and art direction at this point.
Boring, unfair, sexist, and misogynistic...
 
The barbarian archetype is for some reason something I've been fine with. I think it's because I rarely see them "dolled up" and the male version is also usually very similar. But I can understand why one would have an issue with this particular design too. Also that crew looks actually quite good representation/diversity wise. Glad to have this game on my radar.

Edit: There's one more female companion not in the picture.


I guess I could add the character description from the developers site too
That’s an interesting character background, for a ‘disgraced’ paladin to still be a capable warrior carving their own path and with their own retained skills in diplomacy and martial abilities seems really cool to me, even more so than a goody-two-shoes, holy crusader type. Interested in that now.
 
I think the normalisation is something that gets conveniently handwaved when people argue in defence of a single instance of sexualised design as 'but creative freedom!'. It's when we get entire genres that seem unable to offer female characters without having them almost sexualised by default that it's a clear industry problem, which is where we are now. It's such a boring template for costume and art direction at this point.
I feel like "lack of clothes" isn't really a design direction. I know it gets sold as one though.

The irony is almost tangible when people rebut complaints by using the creative freedom excuse.
 
I'd just like to say the Peach Crown was an incredibly stupid idea and pretty much begged for this shit to happen. The proper response to an "oh shit we forgot to but women in our game (who don't need rescuing)" moment isn't to turn one female (presenting) character into two, it's to just add more actual female characters. Daisy is right there if you need a Peach stand in. So is Rosalina.
 
I feel like "lack of clothes" isn't really a design direction. I know it gets sold as one though.

The irony is almost tangible when people rebut complaints by using the creative freedom excuse.
I know people like to call it creative freedom, but it's really a case of "normative creativity". It's a much better framework for having a coherent discussion regarding creative input, and how we got here in the first place.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1023/B:SERS.0000037885.22789.83
 
I decided to read up on the Super Crown and I find it pretty dumb that Toadette's entire form completely changes to Peach for no apparent reason other than finding a way to get Peach playable in Super Mario UD.
Why not keep Toadette's look, make her grow in size ala Super Mushroom (does Toad grow in size like Mario? I've not played the console NSMB games :X) and just give her that outfit with the crown on her head looking like a hair clip?
 
Because apparently complaining about a trend in videogame fanart is relevant to the discussion, so by proxy, this is too
Of course complaining about a fanart in a dedicated thread about that fanart is relevant to the discussion, this is what discussion means. This post doesn't offer any kind of discussion for the subject of this thread though, it's just gloating.
 
Of course complaining about a fanart in a dedicated thread about that fanart is relevant to the discussion, this is what discussion means. This post doesn't offer any kind of discussion for the subject of this thread though, it's just gloating.
Sorry if my post comes across as gloating. I wasn't trying to.
 
Great to see Visual Works refining their craft on great projects.
Full circle from their original work in FFVII and Tifa's boobs.

I decided to read up on the Super Crown and I find it pretty dumb that Toadette's entire form completely changes to Peach for no apparent reason other than finding a way to get Peach playable in Super Mario UD.
Why not keep Toadette's look, make her grow in size ala Super Mushroom (does Toad grow in size like Mario? I've not played the console NSMB games :X) and just give her that outfit with the crown on her head looking like a hair clip?
Actually Toadette as you usually see her depicted is already her "super mushroom" form, her "starter" form would be a squashed version of that. Peachette seems to be a further upgrade, like the fire flower or raccoon leaf. It seems like the most unnecessary thing ever (and I have no clue how that will work in multiplayer, if she's even playable there), but I'll take Toadette as a fourth character if only so that the lineup isn't fucking "Mario, Luigi, Blue Toad and Yellow Toad".

Really, it's so sad that NSMBU is the peak of the New series yet it still makes such incredibly braindead decisions like having Peach kidnapped again and preventing players from playing as her. Can't be thankful enough that 3D World did away with that nonsense at long last.
 
I see that such fan arts are following the whole 'Darker skin tone= evil' :V

Full circle from their original work in FFVII and Tifa's boobs.



Actually Toadette as you usually see her depicted is already her "super mushroom" form, her "starter" form would be a squashed version of that. Peachette seems to be a further upgrade, like the fire flower or raccoon leaf. It seems like the most unnecessary thing ever (and I have no clue how that will work in multiplayer, if she's even playable there), but I'll take Toadette as a fourth character if only so that the lineup isn't fucking "Mario, Luigi, Blue Toad and Yellow Toad".

Really, it's so sad that NSMBU is the peak of the New series yet it still makes such incredibly braindead decisions like having Peach kidnapped again and preventing players from playing as her. Can't be thankful enough that 3D World did away with that nonsense at long last.
Thanks for clearing it up. Yeah the Super Crown should not chang her into Peach and just given her a power ups like you wrote.
 
I never said there was, it just feels like we are two steps away from critiquing doujins.
People can draw whatever they want. What’s worth analyzing is what becomes a viral hit and what that entails, particularly in a context where sexualization of women in particular is a norm.

For me it’s kind of annoying that stuff like this gets to be viral, but if a gay character even gets included in a game, people complain that it’s “forced.” Yet, a redesign of an existing character that does little beyond sexualize her gets to be viral? It just says something about our culture and it’s worth analyzing. I don’t care if people make sexy fanart, that’s not a problem, what’s interesting is seeing what gets celebrated and what gets lauded.
 
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I decided to read up on the Super Crown and I find it pretty dumb that Toadette's entire form completely changes to Peach for no apparent reason other than finding a way to get Peach playable in Super Mario UD.
Why not keep Toadette's look, make her grow in size ala Super Mushroom (does Toad grow in size like Mario? I've not played the console NSMB games :X) and just give her that outfit with the crown on her head looking like a hair clip?
I love the whole Bowser part of the meme, but in the actual Mario lore, I feel like this really diminishes who Toadette and Peach are. "Just put on this item and you literally become the most important woman in the Mario universe, not like she matters anyways". It also makes Toadette "weaker" as she obviously becomes stronger by completely changing how she looks and dropping her visual identity. This bugs me more than it probably should. The literally could have just brought Daisy instead.

This also makes me wonder what the hell Peach is.

All for the sake of keeping Peach the Damsel in Distress and not playable in the game.
 
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