Why women criticise sexualised character designs |OT2| I have no pants and I must scream (READ OP)

That is the one thing I disagree with the OP. Video games like movies are not only for escapist as many have social commentary as the main aim.
I think you'll find that roughly 0% of the sexualized characters complained about in this thread and the previous thread are from games attempting to make genuine social commentary. It's asshats who are sexualizing women just because they're horny or used to seeing women sexualized that we take issue with.
 
Last edited:
Imo, Widowmaker is an incredibly bland design, especially compared to its peers. She almost feels out of place.
Well, they only started making variations on body types when Mei arrived, so the initial designs do feel pretty bland or sexualized. I love Symmetra but her clothes make no sense considering her jobs
 
One thing in favor of Overwatch is that well, if not EVERY character is wearing widowmakerlike outfits, it's fine if one is.

(I am personally not against sexualized outfits if there's variety).

However, Widowmakers outfit is particularly silly, admittedly. And then there's D.VA, Tracers butt.... okay nevermind, it's stupid.
 
I think you'll find that roughly 0% of the sexualized characters complained about in this thread and the previous thread are from games attempting to make genuine social commentary. It's asshats who are sexualizing women just because they're horny or used to seeing women sexualized that we take issue with.
It's why you get justifications of bad designs like this:
 
Or, like the galaxy brain in one of the browser threads put it:
"THE BOWSETTE ART IS MOSTLY DONE BY FEEEEEEMALES, SO ITS OKAY"

Trust people using females, they know where it's at when it comes to sexualization.

Edit: This is the interwebs, so just to add: This post is filled with dripping sarcasm.
 
Or, like the galaxy brain in one of the browser threads put it:
"THE BOWSETTE ART IS MOSTLY DONE BY FEEEEEEMALES, SO ITS OKAY"

Trust people using females, they know where it's at when it comes to sexualization.

Edit: This is the interwebs, so just to add: This post is filled with dripping sarcasm.
So is the core concept of Bowsette the problem or the perverts drawing her?
Because there is plenty clean/wholesome stuff out there
 
The concept is not inherently bad, in my personal opinion.

On the other hand, turning the concept into "Oh, and also a tiny leotard and gigantic breasts so it's just the generic sexy-version-of-monster-design that is also a sex slave with a personality that doesn't even resemble Bowser's if you squint really hard and hit your head on the table" while defending it with "females are doing it so it's okay" is inherently bad.

So I'd say it's a range, and a lot of that range is totally fine.
 
Well, it's just this:
Well no, that is different as it is meant as a counter for arguments that a particular event needs to occur in a story by using said story in a circular argument. The thermian argument sidesteps intent altogether. ProZD video is demonstrating misattributed intent, so people can justify bad design. There's a subtle difference.
 
Because they are boring? Because there's not a super hot evil woman in the Nintendo characters?
You don't seem to understand my post at all. Actually quote the whole thing and not just a part of it, maybe that's why you don't get it.

I meant that THE POWER UP diminishes who they are, Princess Bowser is not even canon, they don't mean anything in the Mario lore. I hope this clears that up.

I DON'T like what this power-up does to Peach and Toadette, a Power-up that just turns you into Peach diminishes who Peach is. It also diminishes Toadette because it means she can't be her own character when she becomes stronger, she needs to abandon her visual identity and who she is to "power-up". I'm not a fan of this at all.

All of this just to keep Peach as a Damsel in Distress.
 
Last edited:
Well, it's just this:
No, it isn't.

The ProZD guy is saying the author made the decision for deep and meaningful reasons.

The Thermian argument is using the fictional reasoning to dismiss criticism of the author's decisions.

The Thermian argument version of ProZD's video would be something like, "Her outfit features a boob window because that's the prevalent fashion of the setting and Waifu-san is consistently a conformist."
 
No he isn't, all the reasoning is straight up contradicted at the end by Thomas Manga himself.
...

Jesus fucking Christ. I'm almost insulted by the density on display here.

You... uhh... do realise they're different characters (or caricatures) played by the same guy, right?

I'm referring to the one who is saying that.
 
...

Jesus fucking Christ. I'm almost insulted by the density on display here.

You... uhh... do realise they're different characters (or caricatures) played by the same guy, right?

I'm referring to the one who is saying that.
I misunderstood your meaning, my bad, but come on there's no need for that.
 
I still say that these are probably the best pictures to come out of this meme because it actually tries to keep it in the spirit of the games by making them boss-like rather than waifu-like:
These are great. I could see those having been real mario characters. The Hammer Sis and Bowser especially.
 
showing skin as a cheap way of being sexy is so old and overused it's honestly stale
Ain't that the truth! Also like the art you posted. It just comes across as more of a "Bowser as a woman" than the original does (and I like the original). I'd hope that if Nintendo did consider adding some kind of female Bowser, Koopa Princess, Bowser Jr's mom we get something more like that. I know, dumb dimorphism and all but I think it'd be a nice diverse addition to the Mario cast.

I still say that these are probably the best pictures to come out of this meme because it actually tries to keep it in the spirit of the games by making them boss-like rather than waifu-like:
Yeah I like these too! The art reminds me of something you'd see in the M+L series. Though I'd still love a Majora's Mask meets Mega Man type action platformer for Peach with her obtaining abilities of familiar enemies. I guess you could say, "like Odyssey" but some of the Super Crowned art I've seen where it'd still be more "her".

Like this:


 
Well no, that is different as it is meant as a counter for arguments that a particular event needs to occur in a story by using said story in a circular argument. The thermian argument sidesteps intent altogether. ProZD video is demonstrating misattributed intent, so people can justify bad design. There's a subtle difference.
It's still using a Thermian argument as the core of its rebuttal (i.e., you don't understand the in-universe reason and thus your argument is null and void). The Thermian Argument is not about intent but it is often used indirectly as a means of undercutting an argument. ProZD's presentation is a character that forms their discourse via intent + Thermian Argument. The Thermian argument is the core, the intent is just window dressing (such that it becomes the butt of the joke).

Importantly however, the reason/intent matters little or not at all; what is interpreted is what makes the media meaningful.
 
Last edited:
It's still using a Thermian argument as the core of its rebuttal (i.e., you don't understand the in-universe reason and thus your argument is null and void). The Thermian Argument is not about intent but it is often used indirectly as a means of undercutting an argument. ProZD's presentation is a character that forms their discourse via intent + Thermian Argument. The Thermian argument is the core, the intent is just window dressing (such that it becomes the butt of the joke).
No, because the difference is that it's not diegetic.
 
Read sabrina's post again. FoldableHuman's second condition is irrelevant here, because social commentary functions perpendicular to internal consistency. Again, it's a subtle difference. It's why fanart can be problematic, while not defended diegeticly.

Putting it a different way, problematic art (and storytelling) doesn't need to be internally consistent (which is what the Thermian argument tackles) in order to be defended.
 
Read sabrina's post again. FoldableHuman's second condition is irrelevant here, because social commentary functions perpendicular to internal consistency. Again, it's a subtle difference. It's why fanart can be problematic, while not defended diegeticly.

Putting it a different way, problematic art (and storytelling) doesn't need to be internally consistent (which is what the Thermian argument tackles) in order to be defended.
I agree, but what ProZD is presenting is a complaint and a rebuttal towards the diegesis of a fictional work.

It's not discussing fanart at all.
 
I think the difference is not subtle at all and they are actually the opposite. The Thermian Argument snatches responsibility from the author entirely by pretending that they have no choice but to be a slave to a fictional rule. The ProZD skit puts more responsibility on the author by assigning more meaningful intent than they actually have.

"It's a metaphor / metacommentary / allusion" specifically lands accountability on something outside the narrative, while the Thermian Argument is specifically about justifications within the narrative.
 
Last edited:
Explain why this matters?
It's the very core of the Thermian argument. Here the point is that something being internally consistent doesn't mitigate that a particular event is problematic.

Compare it to what I quoted:
It's asshats who are sexualizing women just because they're horny or used to seeing women sexualized that we take issue with.
Here, the excuse can be whatever, not strictly "in-universe". It's not necessarily sufficient to fulfill the Thermian argument.

I agree, but what ProZD is presenting is a complaint and a rebuttal towards the diegesis of a fictional work.

It's not discussing fanart at all.
I used fanart as an example for why those two apply differently.

I think the difference is not subtle at all and they are actually the opposite. The Thermian Argument snatches responsibility from the author entirely by pretending that they have no choice but to be a slave to a fictional rule. The ProZD skit puts more responsibility on the author by assigning more meaningful intent than they actually have.

"It's a metaphor / metacommentary / allusion" specifically lands accountability on something outside the narrative, while the Thermian Argument is specifically about justifications within the narrative.
Yes, that's well put. I mostly said that it's a subtle difference because I've seen other people overapply the Thermian argument similarly elsewhere.
 
FWIW, I think there's room for both to be the case. There are cases where both the fanbase and authors will claim media as making social commentary even when it's clearly an excuse. MGS V's Quiet is an obvious example of this, where Kojima gave an "in-universe" explanation for why she was a stripper, and slobbering fans also strutted it out as being useful social commentary.
 
I think the difference is not subtle at all and they are actually the opposite. The Thermian Argument snatches responsibility from the author entirely by pretending that they have no choice but to be a slave to a fictional rule. The ProZD skit puts more responsibility on the author by assigning more meaningful intent than they actually have.

"It's a metaphor / metacommentary / allusion" specifically lands accountability on something outside the narrative, while the Thermian Argument is specifically about justifications within the narrative.
Yeah, the two arguments seem pretty different, even if they may overlap in some instances.

PS: Those were great vids btw.
 
What do people here think about womens wrestling?

One of the few independent women wrestling promotions is going to live stream one of their biggest shows in around 2 hours, and you can get a 7 days free trial to watch it. The main event is Toni Storm vs Meiko Satomura. Satomura is a legend and most consider her the best women wrestler. Storm is a young veteran and many consider her one of the top 10 womens wrestlers.


Also EVE is a great promotion to follow:

 
Last edited:
Really good post by Mesoian over in the Valkyrie Chronicles 4 thread. Thought it was worth posting.
Anyway, now that I hit chapter 5, I'm going to offer a counterpoint to OP and it's something that I might write a piece on once I'm done with the game.

VC4 doesn't have a sexism problem. It has a toxic masculinity problem that uses sexism as a behavioral extension.

For the most part, the women in this game are well represented. They are intelligent, they are important and generally, they aren't objectified. The problem is what happens while they are.

So Raz is the problem here. Raz is an idiot. He's the kind of guy that we grew up around and probably didn't befriend because...well, he's an idiot. He's the town bully, he's the guy that uses "fag" and "queer" as pejoratives because he doesn't know what they mean and doesn't care who it hurts. He's all about "Drinking, smoking and fuckin' BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT REAL MEN DO!" Catcalling, grabbing women's asses, fighting people who are emotionally fragile, putting his friends in bad situations, he does all of that because he thinks it's, at best, funny and at worst, manly.

The problem is that none of this shit is confronted. Ever. The game is very adamant about having the players attitude towards Raz be, "Oh he's a tramp. He's a lovable scamp that gets into trouble and you're supposed to shake your head and go, 'oh you!' as you clean up his shit and swat him with a newspaper. He's rough around the edges, but he's a really good guy." Even in the scene in the OP, Raz getting punched by Kai and then essentially play fighting is all in good fun, it's not a punishment it's the continuation of that conversation. Its dogs sniffing each other's asses and then nipping at each other.



But Raz isn't a good guy. Raz is an asshole who constantly endangers the lives of his friends because he feels the need to flex his bravado at every waking moment. He absolutely needs to prove that he's the alpha dog or else he's some weakling who isn't worth a damn. His story is not sympathetic, it's not acceptable, it's completely toxic. But the game constantly says, "You need to forgive him, every time, because he's loyal and trustworthy, even though we've shown multiple times that he is not those things. He will betray you every time, not because he doesn't like you, but because he's an idiot, and that's supposed to be acceptable."

And that's shitty. That's where VC4 is falling flat; The game is saying that you should allow bad behavior from those close to you because you've decided to be friendly. Because at the end of the day, that's the relationship between the MC's. They're not friends, they don't even really like each other that much, but they've DECIDED to be friendly in order to overcome the trials of the army. Now you can make the argument that that's all part of it, that they're letting Raz be bad because having him placated makes the gears run smoother, but it doesn't put stress on that relationship, it just handwaves it and says, "this is fine and you should probably think about doing this in your life too, maybe it'll make your life go smoother". Mind you, there are other characters who express problems with their positions and are taken to task for their shortcomings or wrongdoings, but none of those issues are toxic, it's things like being lazy or being preoccupied or having misconceptions about people before learning more about them. But if you're an asshole for the sake of...being an asshole, the game says you are great and says that the people around you who don't like you being an asshole are wrong and you should ignore what they say in order to continue being an asshole, because the best you is the asshole you.

IMO, and me being at chapter 5, that's the real problem here. 1 scene and a poorly thought up DLC scenario is something we can chastise and say, "wow this is dumb" but ultimately it's one real instance. The bigger problem is that this game re-enforces that toxic masculinity is some great bastion of male empowerment and should be endorsed at every turn. That's way more fucked up than how this game treats its women, which 95% of the time, is not only well, but excellent.
 
What do people here thing about womens wrestling?

One of the few independent women wrestling promotions is going to live stream one of their biggest shows in around 2 hours, and you can get a 7 days free trial to watch it. The main event is Toni Storm vs Meiko Satomura. Satomura is a legend and most consider her the best women wrestler. Storm is a young veteran and many consider her one of the top 10 womens wrestlers.
It's hard to frame a real opinion of it because the lion's share of my wrestling exposure has been WWE and...those writers are awful 100% of the time.

They know they should make storylines that go beyond "Let's be catty for the sake of being catty" but hey don't, because that's hard.
 
Valkyrie Chronicles 4 really got some people to share their views with this kind of content, not even problematic view but more like they don't understand because they see nothing wrong since "He got punched!"

That post really explains it but I doubt most will be wiiling to read it since it attacks their precious game that must be protected.
 
It's hard to frame a real opinion of it because the lion's share of my wrestling exposure has been WWE and...those writers are awful 100% of the time.

They know they should make storylines that go beyond "Let's be catty for the sake of being catty" but hey don't, because that's hard.
Main WWE is just awful, even if they like to pretend they care about womens wrestling now with their so called Womens Revolution. EVE is one of the few decent independent womens wrestling promotions. They are going to try their luck live streaming their shows from the Resistance Gallery. They have a 7 days free trial if you want to give them a chance.
 
That Raz situation in VC4 sounds like the typical Master Roshi nonsense that japanese media loves so much. The typical shitty pervert that doesn't add anything to the cast or story outside of harassing women, but hey, they get punished! Game knows it's bad!... Except not really because it's used as a gag, clearly played for laughs, which extra fucked up, and the game/anime never challenges this because they don't care; the woman slapping him is supposed to make you laugh, not examine his behavior.

Master Roshi, that other old man from Ranma 1/2, etc, they're all the same unnecessary trash, and honestly, genuinely believing that's the author telling you they're bad is so dumb, it hurts my head.
 
That Raz situation in VC4 sounds like the typical Master Roshi nonsense that japanese media loves so much. The typical shitty pervert that doesn't add anything to the cast or story outside of harassing women, but hey, they get punished! Game knows it's bad!... Except not really because it's used as a gag, clearly played for laughs, which extra fucked up, and the game/anime never challenges this because they don't care; the woman slapping him is supposed to make you laugh, not examine his behavior.

Master Roshi, that other old man from Ranma 1/2, etc, they're all the same unnecessary trash, and honestly, genuinely believing that's the author telling you they're bad is so dumb, it hurts my head.
They are there so that the viewer can shake their head about the sexist and pervert character but still get to see women in sexualized situations.
You know the trope, "awful, really awful" *but never looks away.*
 
I am beyond tempted to start a thread with the title "Please stop pretending to give a fuck about video game violence in threads about objectification."
Reminds of when I debate with Conservatives about LGBT rights and they always say it's worse in Muslim countries and I would get thrown off a building or something.

Every single time.
 
Top